Lizzy and Lissa break down the hidden costs – financial and otherwise – of certifications. Education and specialized training in adulthood can lead to many new opportunities, but it does require time, energy, and money. Regardless of your career field, are certifications worth the time, effort, and cost? Let’s talk about it.
Lizzy and Lissa break down the hidden costs – financial and otherwise – of certifications. Education and specialized training in adulthood can lead to many new opportunities, but it does require time, energy, and money. Regardless of your career field, are certifications worth the time, effort, and cost? Let’s talk about it.
Main Topics
00:00 Introduction
01:09 Running The Numbers Segment
02:35 Certifications, Licenses, and Designations
06:53 Why Even Pursue Certifications?
11:05 Financial Costs of Certifications
18:42 Personal Experiences and Challenges
22:32 Legitimacy
29:31 The Value of Specific Certifications
36:41 In-Demand Certifications Across Industries
49:03 20 Cents Segment
References for Statistics
https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/ctes/tables/index.asp
https://nces.ed.gov/ipeds/TrendGenerator/app/answer/4/24
https://luminafoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/professional-certifications-offer-a-pathway-to-good-jobs.pdf
https://www.coursera.org/articles/certificate-programs
https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/paying-for-college/articles/paying-for-college-infographic
Lissa: I recently got my CFP® certification to be a CERTIFIED FINANCIAL PLANNER®
Lizzy: That's cool.
Lissa: And Liz, what is this certification you are working on?
Lizzy: I'm working on my Chartered Alternative Investment Analyst designation.
Lissa: Ay, ay, ay. That's a lot of words.
Lizzy: A lot of words.
Lissa: Today we are talking about, "Are certifications worth it?"
Lizzy: Let's talk about it.
Lissa: Welcome to Net Net with Lizzy and Lissa, where we analyze hidden costs and empower you to make your own damn decisions in life. Each episode covers a different facet of life, and at the end of each episode, we each give our takes on whether we think something is net positive or net negative.
Lizzy: I'm Lizzy, a strategist and consultant with almost 20 years of experience in finance and investing.
Lissa: And I'm Lissa, a personal finance expert and CERTIFIED FINANCIAL PLANNER®. We're best friends who talk about money...
Lizzy: And everything else.
Lissa: Are certifications worth it?
Lizzy: First up, running the numbers on certifications.
Lissa: In 2018, the Bureau of Labor Statistics said that 43 million people in the United States held an active professional certification or license, which was about 17% of the population at that time.
Lizzy: However, according to the National Center for Education Statistics, it's closer to 21% of adults in the US who hold a professional license or certification based on their data from post-secondary institutions. They also say that licenses are more common than certifications, and we'll define them a bit later.
Lissa: Interestingly, Gallup's Great Jobs Report in 2020 reported that 45% of surveyed people reported having earned some kind of professional certification in their career. So, a lot higher when people are self-reporting.
Lizzy: Or that's based on the sample of who's getting-
Lissa: True.
Lizzy: Yeah, who's getting that survey. Gallup has also reported that 42% of workers without a post-secondary degree report having had a professional certification, which means that these certifications are more equitably distributed among workers of different socioeconomic classes and education levels.
Lissa: Oh, I like that one.
Lizzy: Mm-hmm.
Lissa: Well, we know that there is more to life than numbers and statistics, so let's talk about it. Are certifications worth it?
Lizzy: All right. So first off, let's just define and give the context for what we're discussing.
Lissa: Yeah.
Oh, I thought you were going to do it. I thought you're going to do it.
Lizzy: Let's go, Lissa.
Lissa: Okay. Let me give you my understanding, because I didn't really think of this when I was simply working 9 to 5 in a corporate job and didn't really think about additional certifications and licenses. I just was a worker bee. I've learned a lot in the last couple of years, specifically in the finance field. I've always known that there were designations and so many letters that people put after their name. But I think what I've learned, and this is specific to finance, but every industry has their own version of this.
In finance, you have things like licenses, which are actually required by a government body. So if you're talking about finance, these would be your Series 7 license, Series 65, and certain licenses you need to be able to give financial advice to sell securities and sell financial products.
Lizzy: Securities, yep.
Lissa: And then there are certifications which are run by different third-party providers, companies that have created this program to teach you, to train you. And if you get certified, you get a certificate. You get to put letters after your name. And depending on what it is, you might be viewed as an expert in that area.
And then there are, I think, a level higher that goes hand-in-hand with certification, which is a designation. That's my understanding. Am I missing anything?
Lizzy: I don't think so. A few things, as I looked into this, that I'll add. So basically, in general, we're talking about education. And often, post-secondary education and separate from a traditional college degree.
Lissa: College degree, right.
Lizzy: Often separate from a trade school, but not necessarily because some can give you that certification. And a few things I've learned, there's usually some type of coursework that you have to complete. Sometimes there is a exam that is, like, you do it yourself. An online exam. The more reputable, and often the designations, have a proctored exam where you have to go to a facility. They're very rigorous, typically.
Lissa: Oh, man. I'll tell you about mine.
Lizzy: Rigorous. So there's levels to this, for sure. They're issued by a third party. Sometimes, it's a company. We were talking about Google has a certification program for different technologies and those kind of things, or it's like a trade association or independent body within the industry.
A couple interesting notes are that separate from a college program, these usually don't have admission requirements. Some of them do. You have to have this baseline foundational education. But usually, anyone can enter into this.
Lissa: Right.
Lizzy: It is more equitable in that way, so they can often be a great way to shift careers or further skills. And the designation, which is...
I was reading this, they called it a post-nominal. So you'll see this if someone has their doctorate, they have PhD after their name. There's other ones, too. But for certifications, not all of them have a recognized post-nominal.
Lissa: Right.
Lizzy: I think that's usually the ones that are categorized as a designation and/or tend to be the ones that are more rigorous and more respected.
Lissa: Yeah. Now that I think about it, the CFP® certification requires a bachelor's degree.
Lizzy: Yeah. I think mine does too, yeah.
Lissa: There might be a way to waive it. I haven't looked into that.
Lizzy: Often, they'll have a work experience-
Lissa: A different hat.
Lizzy: ... requirement instead. So, you can get there a different way. But you have to have... For some of them, have to have some kind of foundational level of background in that field just to make it applicable usually. You probably wouldn't...
For this one, you certainly wouldn't understand it, jumping into it, but others don't have that requirement.
Lissa: So generally, you are proactively trying to learn more, trying to get certified to become an expert in something, some area, for the hopes that it opens up financial opportunities in the future, I would say. Right?
Lizzy: I think so, yeah. So first, why do you do this? I think a lot of people do it because they want to open up new opportunities. It's going to look good on a resume, it's going to give them an extra edge. Maybe, get them a raise or something like that. And some of them may be requirements for certain roles. That's the biggest thing. Give you an advantage.
There's also, literally, the education.
Lissa: True.
Lizzy: Actually, the knowledge.
Lissa: Knowledge, wanting to know more, curiosity. Okay.
Lizzy: Yeah. Curiosity, develop your skills, and just get better at what you do. Because most of the time, these are things that are not required of you. It's fairly voluntary. People are taking this on to get there, maybe in pursuit of a particular role or career path, but no one's making you do this.
Lissa: It may depend on the field because if you think about, maybe engineering fields or health medical fields, to get a certain job or role, you might be required by your employer to get a certification.
Lizzy: You might be, yeah. And I would say that we didn't touch on in too much detail, licenses. You mentioned it, which are licenses are similar except that they're regulated by a government or state entity. And so, those are a little bit more strict. And I think licenses are more likely to be something that's required of you to do a job.
Lissa: Right.
Lizzy: A couple other notes, these are often time-bound, so they're good for a certain period of time. And then eventually, you'll have to brush up on it, retest. You might have to do continuing education to show that you didn't just forget everything. And I found a note that on average, a certification or designation program requires 200 to 300 course hours. Not necessarily study hours as we can attest to, but course hours.
Lissa: Yeah. Suddenly, [inaudible 00:09:10] way more.
Lizzy: And they say anything more than that is usually more like a degree program.
Lissa: Yeah. Okay.
Lizzy: But I did look. I was looking into this, the professional correlations between some of these in finance. And so yours, the CFP®, is considered an equivalent of a master's degree.
Lissa: Right. The course-
Lizzy: In terms of the depth and the expertise.
Lissa: The courses you take are graduate-level courses. And what I came to find out later was the courses I took at the college I took them at, their grad level credits, that I'm pretty much more than halfway towards a master's degree, if I want it.
Lizzy: Yeah, let's go.
Lissa: So, I might do that later.
Lizzy: Sure.
Lissa: But for what? We're going to talk about that. Like, but for what? I'm just collecting things.
Lizzy: Yeah. But for what? So, the last thing-
Yeah. So curiosity, that's another reason you might do this. You just like to develop skills. I told my stepdad I was doing this and he's like, "So, you just want to be good at everything?" He's like, "What are you going to do next? A general contractor's license?"
Lissa: Right. It's true.
Lizzy: Yeah. And then I had another one, and it's on my mind.
Lissa: Another certification?
Lizzy: No. Another reason.
Lissa: Oh, another reason to do them.
Lizzy: Oh, a career switch.
Lissa: Career switching.
Lizzy: So these ones where you're required to have some background may not be applicable, but some other certifications, it can be an entry point into a new career path.
Lissa: Yeah. I want to do a whole different episode-
Lizzy: Oh, yeah. We'll talk about career switching.
Lissa: ... on just career changing, yeah. Because I think long are the days where you stay in the same job for 40 years or even the same industry.
Lizzy: Seriously.
Lissa: I think there's so much opportunity now to career pivot, if you want, but episode for another day.
Lizzy: Yeah.
Lissa: Right. Okay, I think that's a great definition of certifications is the word we're using to define this all, but there are nuances. Licenses, designations, et cetera.
Lizzy: All right. So high level, what are some of the costs?
Lissa: The financial cost of getting the certification because these programs will have a dollar figure to take the program, and then the exam usually has a fee. And then like you said, to have an active certification or license or whatever it is typically requires...
Lizzy: Like an annual fee?
Lissa: An annual fee. So definitely, the financial cost.
Lizzy: So for some context for my CAIA program, the cost of the level 1 exam, I think there's an exam fee plus a one-time fee. So, total is like 1,300. And then there will be a level 2 before I could get the designation, and then there's an annual fee that's like a couple hundred bucks, I think. But then I also paid for the education because from a separate third party to do video courses, and get additional notes and stuff because it's hard. So that, I think I paid another 500 or so.
Lissa: For the CFP®, I can't tell you the exact number because I paid it in full at the beginning, which you don't have to do, and I did that for a reason. So, there are seven courses that you have to take for it. I want to say I paid somewhere between 5,000 and $6,000. I was still working full-time at the time, and my job had a program where you could get reimbursed for education. They had a program for getting reimbursed for things related to your job, but also they reimbursed if you wanted to do personal development and learn something else, which was a smaller percentage. I don't remember the exact percentage, maybe 10%, 30% of it that they reimbursed you. So I was like, "Let me pay it in full because I don't know if I'll still be working here by the time I finished the program." So, I paid it all in full. That was for the education portion.
And then more recently, I took the exam, which I paid somewhere around 800, 900. So a couple years of my life, $6,000. This certification will pay for itself almost immediately based on what I choose to do with it. And the crazy part about certifications is sometimes when you're like, "Dang, this is a lot of money to be learning, and I'm an adult. Why am I paying more to learn more?" But you compare that to a college degree, it's pennies.
Lizzy: Seriously, yeah. Let's say, a single digit thousands maybe for some of these. Some might be cheaper. But yeah, it's a huge level up professionally, depending on what you're pursuing. And sometimes, an entry requirement. And typically, much more cost-effective than an additional degree, and often very practical.
So that's something we didn't discuss is, like, I know for our education at UCLA, it's very theoretical, which is great and really valuable. But professional certifications, I feel like, tend to be very practical knowledge that you're going to use in the execution of a job every day. Right?
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: And much more hands-on than just the theory behind something.
Lissa: And I think that's a good thing to call out too, because something I was thinking about a lot is certifications in relation to fitness-related fields. Because even if you choose to get into the athletic training or athletic field in college, a lot of it is learning the science, the theory behind it. But then, you eventually have to get experience, like hours of experience, and then also learn more practical specifications like...
Lizzy: Techniques and specific skills.
Lissa: Yeah, techniques in actually doing things. And I think that reigns true in pretty much all fields. But that comes to mind to me, specific for...
I'd say finance too, right?
Lizzy: Yeah.
Lissa: You take economics in college, but how do you actually teach someone how to invest in-
Lizzy: Right. So okay, back to costs. We've got financial costs.
Lissa: Okay. Time, obviously.
Lizzy: Time, bro.
Lissa: Tell us about your current study schedule. What does that look like?
Lizzy: Well, I'm behind. This one is interesting and a little bit different from yours in that my exam is in March and the open date is October. So mid-March, but you can sign up mid-October. The prior mid-October. So you have that window but you can't access the curriculum until that, so you're kind of time-bound.
Lissa: Oh, wow.
Lizzy: So, you don't have that much time to cover a lot of material. They recommend 200 hours to cover everything. I think I'm going to blow past that, for sure. Theoretically, I'm doing 10 hours per week, often more. And so, I'm doing the readings of the curriculum here, watching videos from the course that I bought. Most of the time, I'm watching the videos multiple times. So one chapter will usually have an hour or so of video. I'm listening to them on double speed everywhere I go. Walking the dog, in the car, on the way here.
But then there's a ton of math and calculations, so then it's going through all the notes, learning the calculations, practicing practice exams, flashcards. It's complex. So hundreds of hours, for sure. It's dominating my life.
Lissa: I just remembered that actually, that figure I gave earlier for prepping for the CFP® exam, I paid another 2,000 or so for an exam prep course in the four months leading up to the exam. So, that's more financial costs. And then the time, they... So you take these seven courses, so that's a lot of hours. It could take years. Some people can knock it out in a year or year and a half if you already have a financial background. Not me. So, it took me a couple of years.
So, those are hours in itself. And then for the exam, they recommended same as that, like 200 to 300 hours of re-reviewing of practice exams, of attending lectures. I even attended a 4-day, 10 hour a day in-person review, which was crazy. You get to be really close friends with people in four days because of, like, trauma bonding together.
Lizzy: In the trenches.
Lissa: Yeah, in the trenches. And so, lucky for me when I was prepping for the exam, I pretty much shut down my business. I didn't take on any new clients in my financial coaching business. I stopped posting on most social media. I'm a content creator. I kept this podcast going because we filmed a lot in advance, and I maintained one video a week on YouTube. But outside of those, very few things in my business. I stopped making money in my business to focus completely on this because I didn't want to have to take it again. The pass rate is around 60%, so it's passable, but it's not uncommon to not pass the first time.
Lizzy: And then often, you have to pay more money to take the exam again, yeah.
Lissa: Pay more money to take the exam again. And I didn't want to do all of that, so I was like, "Let me go all-in this time just to see if I can pass it." Because for another cost is the emotional strain.
Lizzy: Girl, yeah. So, talk about it. Because you recently took your exam.
Lissa: Well, lucky for me, I got a preliminary pass. They tell you on the spot whether or not you get this preliminary pass. You still get nervous, though. Like, "Is this even real or not?" Because it pops up on the screen right when you're finished. I cried in the car right after.
Lizzy: Oh, you told me that.
Lissa: I cried because, one, I'm an emotional sensitive person. But this, to me, represented a whole career change. I started the program when I was working full-time at Google. Burnt out, tired of the 9 to 5 life, which was really like 8 to 7 life. It wasn't 9 to 5. I was there for 11 years and I started this program there. It took me three years to take all the courses, which like I told you, some people do an accelerated 12 months to finish it all.
Lizzy: Yeah, it's crazy.
Lissa: And I don't know how because all of this stuff was new to me. Estate planning, tax planning, retirement planning. I didn't know any of this.
Lizzy: This is not everything.
Lissa: This is not everything. This is less than half of the material. I just didn't want to carry all the books. These are big books. We probably would've had a stack this big.
So anyway, when I passed or got that preliminary pass right after the exam, it all hit me that I have been studying for this for years. I've been a financial coach for a while. I've been posting online content on TikTok, YouTube, teaching finance. But feeling like getting this certification actually erased a bunch of imposter syndrome.
Lizzy: It legitimizes you.
Lissa: Yeah, it just legitimizes...
I can do math, but I can't talk.
Lizzy: It's okay.
Lissa: It legitimized me. It felt really good. I probably would've been bummed had I not passed the first time, but probably would've been motivated the second time I took it because I would've had more time and known what to expect. But it's a lot of emotions up and down throughout the whole thing. There were plenty of days that I studied, got 20 minutes in and was like I can't focus or I have a headache, "It's not even worth the time. I'm just going to skip today."
Lizzy: Yeah, I totally understand. There's times where I'm like my brain can't absorb this information because... I'm sure in many other programs and other subject matter, but this stuff is complex.
Lissa: I know. I kind of wanted to just read complex stuff.
Lizzy: It is complex. So for example, my course level 1 of this has 8 modules. I'm on the second module, which is the biggest. I track my progress of my concepts that I'm learning. It has 300 formulas and over 500 individual concepts just for the second module.
Lissa: That's crazy. So here's a line, here's a quote, "Note that while floating rate debt has less interest rate risk than fixed rate debt, the majority of floating rate debt may be unrated or of lower credit quality when moving from fixed rate debt to floating rate debt." Like, I need pictures for this stuff when you start comparing things.
Lizzy: Yeah, it's complicated and it's a lot. So you have the time, literally, that you're spending, and that's often broken up. In your case, it was coursework and then test prep. Mine is, because of the timeframe, it's kind of all at once.
Lissa: All together, yeah.
Lizzy: Which I think is, I'm navigating that. It can be a little more challenging because I'm trying to learn it, learn it, and learn how to test on it. And then the emotional cost, which is as you're doing the education, it's just energy and it's stressful. And there's a lot of moments of like, "Fuck."
Lissa: Yeah. So, what led you to pursuing this?
Lizzy: So, that's a great question. For me, it was about the legitimizing me. I've been in the alternative investments industry for almost 20 years, but most of that has been spent on the marketing side. And what people don't understand always or give credit to is that in order to market a complex investment... And by marketing, I mean, write content around it, write blog posts, write white papers, describe the product. You have to understand it in a lot of detail. And so, the number of times I've been referred to as the marketing girl, which is kind of another issue. But it can be frustrating when in reality, I have a ton of expertise and knowledge around this.
And so I'm in a position now as a co-founder of a product, of a fund, where I'm really integral in the team that's designing these products, but I don't have the credentials that qualify me for the investment team.
Lissa: Because your 20 years of experience in the industry doesn't qualify you.
Lizzy: Right.
Lissa: It's so annoying.
Lizzy: Right. And there are people in my team that know this and are like, "No, you know this stuff as well as anyone," and there are others that don't. And then as we're pitching to people, I don't necessarily have the credentials.
So that's the biggest reason for me is having that CAIA designation, it is incredibly well-respected in the industry. And it's like, "Oh."
Lissa: In the alternative space.
Lizzy: In the alternative investment industry.
Lissa: Even if you're not going to be an analyst?
Lizzy: Even if you're not going to be an analyst.
Lissa: Okay.
Lizzy: It's like, "Oh, you know your shit. You earned this."
Lissa: Perfect.
Lizzy: So, that's the main reason for me. But it's also a lot of education. So far, everything are concepts I'm very familiar with. But the depth of understanding of them, and the intricacy, and the analysis, this is really about math. If you're being an analyst, you're learning how to do all of these complex calculations, and run models and all of that. And it's just giving me a much deeper understanding. It's really interesting doing it now, as I am marketing and building this product, how aligned it is.
Lissa: For the CFP® exam, similarly, there's a bunch of formulas and math that you have to do. Which in the real world, when you're doing financial planning with clients, software does it for you. But knowing how it works gives you more insight into how to do it.
Lizzy: Yeah, for sure. And yeah, you can understand it better. You can understand... For example, talking about different ways to measure return on investment. Why you would use one over the other, or the pros and cons of both. Understanding how they're calculated and how to do it helps understand why you would use them.
So yeah, that's my reason, the legitimacy of it.
Lissa: All right.
Lizzy: It's not going to make me any more money just because of where-
Lissa: No, because you're already there.
Lizzy: My career path has nothing to do with that. And it's more entrepreneurial. If I were in the same field but a different job, it probably would.
Lissa: For me... So, this is another interesting story. There's this thing in the finance field but I think this happens in other fields too, where at some point, you have so many certifications that you don't know which letters to market yourself with at the end of your name. And it's just a running joke in the industry of having alphabet soup, right?
Lizzy: Yeah.
Lissa: It was like, "Lissa Prudentio, A, B, C, D, E, F, G." And the general public has no idea what these initials mean. But I will say, I started the path towards getting the CFP® certification first while I was still working full time. And when I realized how long it was going to take and I was already teaching finance on the internet, I was already starting to grow. I had experience, myself, in my own life. I've invested in real estate and stock market. I've grown my wealth. I've gotten out of debt. Like, I had life experience.
But similar to you, I want to legitimize it because there's a lot of trash out there on the internet where people are sharing their experiences and they mean well. And I've given this example before. There's a lot of influencers that tell people to open a Roth IRA, which could be great for many people, but unless you know who... If you're even able to, if your income level fits.
Lizzy: Yeah. Why is this appropriate for me?
Lissa: Why is it appropriate for you? There's so much things like that that I wanted to learn the legit information and more structure. I knew that the CFP® was going to take forever.
And actually to rewind, before I pursued getting the CFP® certification, I found this thing called financial therapy. There's this financial therapy association that does a certification to do more... I don't want to minimize it and say it's just mindset stuff, but it's the therapy behind finances. And in order to do that, you had to either be a licensed therapist, counselor, or have something like that, or be a certified financial planner or an accredited financial counselor. And because I knew that becoming a CFP® practitioner was going to take forever, I also started the AFC, which is the Accredited Financial Counselor.
Lizzy: Financial counselor, yeah.
Lissa: I was able to knock that out pretty quickly within a year. It's more of your basic budgeting, debt management, crisis counseling and things like that. And that was my first finance certification. Then I went down this path of getting a couple of other smaller certifications from not these big, well-respected companies or...
Lizzy: Like, niche-ier.
Lissa: Very niche. Which I think have helped me in how I teach and my own offerings, but they're not known and I don't market myself. I don't talk about them or anything.
Lizzy: So, that's an interesting angle. One of the benefits, often, is marketability. And that's not... It's either as a candidate for a job or as a business owner to potential clients, or I guess, potential clients in a financial advisor role. Trainer or whatever your job is. And a lot of times, the clients don't know what these are.
Lissa: Right.
Lizzy: So, there's some baseline marketability of like, "Oh, that sounds official. That sounds legit." It gives you some credentials, but it's more people within the field that are going to know what this is and know what to look for. And so, there is a point of diminishing returns where only so many of these are relevant. Do I need all of them?
However, for example, I know that you're certified in YNAB, You Need A Budget, a product that we both use to manage budgets. If you had someone who specifically wanted help with that, absolutely. It can also be a way to get clients. A lot of these will have a database, so people looking for that specific thing can find you. And I've noticed that with life coaches, there's different certifications and letters that they can have. And so, if you want someone that's certified in this specific expertise.
Another one, I can't think of the actual name, you're going to know it, is it's like a divorce financial counselors?
Lissa: Oh yeah, CDFA. Certified Divorce...
Oh. Now, I don't know the FA. Financial something.
Lizzy: Something.
Lissa: CDFA, they're financial advisors, financial planners who specialize in divorce planning.
Lizzy: Right. And I have a colleague who has that. He's a collector of certifications as well. And as a friend who's navigating, he's like, "Well, I'm technically have this, so I can advise on it." Also in the finance space, and I'm sure other spaces, some of these designations can qualify you to teach continuing education, which can be another way to spread your influence, to get more clients. So, that kind of thing.
So there's a lot of marketability to it, but not always. Not everyone's going to know what this stuff means.
Lissa: Once, I don't really market myself as all the time. I have this one called Trauma of Money certified practitioner. It's run by... A woman created this with a team of educators, psychologists. Like, real, legit people in academia. They created this program to teach financial coaches to teach, actually, individuals about the trauma behind our relationship with money and how to heal that. And they view it through a trauma-informed lens and very specific to decolonization and-
Lizzy: Yeah, very cool.
Lissa: Things I'm very much aligned with. And so that drew me to it, and I did it, and I'm certified. I'll mention it if I'm hosting a workshop, if it appeals to my audience, but I don't market myself in that way at all. No one knows I have it.
And there's another one that I don't know that it was worth it for me, but it's CFEI, which is Certified Financial Education Instructor. Because for a while, I was teaching workshops. I still do every so often. And I wanted some credibility and to make sure that I was creating curriculum that made sense. And so, it taught me the structure of how to create curriculum, but I think I could have figured that out without the certification.
Lizzy: Sure. Sometimes, it's like a gut check. So, I have a couple that... It's funny. Looking at this, I'm like, "I know a lot about a lot of diverse things," but I don't, actually.
Lissa: Yeah. What are your other certifications in past or present?
Lizzy: So, I'm working on the CAIA. I don't have many. I recently did a private debt micro-credential through the same organization. I just did it because the test hadn't opened up and I was like... It was cheap and my product is in private debt. But the interesting thing about that is it's basically that online self-test. It's not this proctored thing. It doesn't have a designation I would put after my name. So, that was more of an educational thing. It's not something super marketable.
So, I have some of those. I have, I think, a digital marketing certification from HubSpot and some from LinkedIn. I did a business management. Several courses through Coursera. And there are things I paid for, or the Coursera one is the least. I paid for this curriculum, basically like online business school, but not through a degree. But I don't think they give me anything.
Lissa: I'm glad you pointed that out because you mentioned the Google certifications earlier. There's LinkedIn courses and certifications, there's Coursera. And then, there's a lot of things you can learn on Skillshare. Just individual people and companies creating courses that, to varying degrees, you could put on your resume, whether they're looked at as legit is a different story. But when you're talking about someone who doesn't have any certifications or no experience and they want to join a new field, it doesn't hurt.
It's like finding your path towards... If you want to make more money in your career or to switch careers, what is that path? And can a certification or more education help?
Lizzy: And it's that line between, "Why am I doing this," to actually learn to add some more stuff to my resume.
Lissa: Or because of status.
Lizzy: For status, yeah. And so some of them, I think the LinkedIn one, I might have a couple. Those ones are like if you have knowledge in a field, it just tests you on that knowledge. And if you get a certain pass rate, it'll certify you. And they have a bunch in very specific skills. So, I think I have a bunch of little marketing ones. I don't know that those have ever added value to me, but they're pretty low barrier to entry because they didn't take a lot of time, and it's just verifying your existing knowledge and expertise.
So that's the interesting relationship of there are a lot that are less valuable socially or professionally in the sense of the weight that they hold, but you might still get stuff out of them. Or if I'm evaluating a candidate, like looking at their resume, I'm not sure how I would perceive it. I'd be like, "Okay. Well, at least, I know they..." If they have an email marketing certification from HubSpot, like, "All right. At least, I know they actually know some of this stuff."
Lissa: I think it depends on what you're hiring for and what kind of company you are. Because I think, let's say, it's a huge business that has tons of resumes being submitted for jobs, and they want the best of the best of the best from the top degree programs or whatever, it might not work there. But if you're being hired by a small company or an entrepreneur, a solopreneur or something like that, and they want to see, like, "No, this person has a growth mindset. They really want to master their field. I like that about them." I think it can help in so many ways to get you in the door.
Lizzy: I also think, looking back as I am a very much a generalist, so I've had a wide range of skills and done a wide range of functions in my roles, also because I worked at a lot of small companies, it can legitimize that. Like, "No, actually I do know how to do this random thing, and this random thing, and this random thing."
I did look up what are some of the most in-demand certifications because we've mostly been talking about finance, because that's kind of our realm. But this is in no way specific to finance. So, just a random list of some of the most popular in-demand are Project Management Professional, PMP. One of my other best friends has that and it's similar, very rigorous. Certified Business Analyst Professional, Certified Business Analysis Professional, an Agile Analysis Certification. Agile is an approach to business and development. Certified Supply Chain Professional and CompTIA A+ Technician Certification. I probably didn't say that right, but that's a computer programming one. Google Digital Marketing and E-commerce Professional Certification, and IBM Data Science Professional Certificate.
Lissa: Yeah, I'm not surprised. I haven't heard of most of these, but I'm not surprised because most businesses will require these functions. Project management-
Lizzy: Supply chain.
Lissa: Supply chain, agile. Yeah, all the... So I think if you're also trying to make yourself more marketable, have more job security as a whole, when you aim for certain knowledge or certifications that are broader, you stand out from average Joe-
Lizzy: For sure, yeah.
Lissa: ... and have more places you can apply to jobs for. It doesn't have to be in a specific industry because you could do project management in any industry. I think that's one way to look at it, too.
Lizzy: And so looking at these fields, I think where I often see a lot of certifications is in technology. And the interesting thing about that is you may have tons of experience with a certain type of code, a certain type of technology, a language, a product, but the certification helps. It just legitimizes it. I see it a lot.
There's a good amount in marketing. Although, I will say in marketing, there are none that I can think of that are super meaningful.
Lissa: That stand out? Yeah.
Lizzy: Yeah.
Lissa: And I think because marketing is ever-evolving and you're going to have to change with the time, so it's hard to... You can learn the basics of marketing, but to learn how to market on new platforms that come out every year with technology, it's tough.
Same with coding. Because with AI, it's making it tougher to legitimize yourself as just a coder because there's so many coding languages. Oh, speaking English, I took coding.
Lizzy: Do the coding? I was wondering if that had a certification or something with it.
Lissa: It has a certification but it's not like anyone cares. It's like you can either code or you don't, right?
Lizzy: Or you can't, right.
Lissa: I went to a boot camp and I got a certificate at the end.
Running joke, side story, story time.
Lizzy: Story time.
Lissa: I took coding. Here's the thing, always think about re-skilling and upskilling because that's how you're going to make sure that you continue to build value regardless of what technology is being created in the world. Because the more skills you learn, you can make more.
But the story is, seven years ago, I decided to take a coding boot camp. Similarly, my job covered most of the tuition. And so, I went 2 nights a week for 3 hours a night, and then half a day on Saturdays, and this lasted for six months. There was 20 or 25 of us in the class, and I made friends in the class.
Lizzy: Very close friends.
Lissa: Quite a few very close friends. One became my roommate later, one became my business partner later, the other became my tennis buddy later. Like, really, really close friends that I'm still friends with. And we all paid about $10,000 to take this course. Not one of us codes. Not one of us... We could, probably. If I watched a couple of videos, I'd remember how to code.
Lizzy: But none of you do this in your day-to-day, in your careers.
Lissa: None of us do this in a day-to-day at all, nor will we ever. But we basically all paid $10,000 to become friends with each other.
Lizzy: Yeah. Money well-spent.
Lissa: Oh, and then two of them got together. They're dating now. They've been dating for a couple of years.
Lizzy: Long-term relationship, yeah.
Lissa: Long-term relationship. So it's like, "Dang. We paid to just meet each other." But there's no other...
I don't think there would've been another place for us to meet in this city altogether-
Lizzy: No.
Lissa: ... and bond together over that experience, because it was pretty tough.
Lizzy: It was intense?
Lissa: Yeah, it was intense. Our projects were creating these web apps and things like that. One of my projects, we were like, "Oh, let's make a weed store." We made dumb stuff.
But anyway, that had a certification. Never used it, I don't regret it. I don't think it was a waste of money, but what did I...
Lizzy: Yeah, sure. It was the experience. You gained friends, you gained knowledge.
Lissa: Yeah. So, I think there are other added benefits to learning in adulthood post-secondary education that aren't just...
I mean, it sounds silly, but that aren't just about learning and making more money in your job. There are these other things that can come out of it.
Lizzy: That's interesting. I actually wish that my program right now had a communal-
Lissa: Class?
Lizzy: Yeah, class. I looked for one, I couldn't find anything. I wish it had that community. One, to just meet like-minded people, and it's just another good way to study and navigate. That kind of thing. I am glad you called that out because there are definitely other benefits.
And personally, I've always been more about, just, I like to learn stuff. That's my primary motivation usually. But you can do that and also connect with other people.
Lissa: Yeah. I have a note here. I want you to talk about it because when I first heard about this stuff...
I think I saw this on my husband's resume for the first time years ago, when I was like, "What the hell is Lean Six Sigma?" Or all this stuff.
Lizzy: Okay. So, Lean Six Sigma is a business engineering function, and I have a couple of good friends that have the certification. It's very, very widely respected and they have some weird names. There's levels to it, like a ninja and stuff like that, if I'm not confusing it was something else. But basically, you're certified in business efficiency, in how to operate or advise businesses to operate much more efficiently across supply chain, across their production. Just their internal organization and that kind of thing. And so that's a common, really well-respected one that you'll see.
Lissa: Yeah. So we've been talking a lot about finance, business, engineering, but something else that I wanted to talk about, I mentioned it a little earlier, is in the fitness and athletic space.
Lizzy: Fitness, yep.
Lissa: I think it's so interesting because we have some friends who specialize in certain fields. There's a certification that has to do with kettlebell training, and there is a whole community of people who love to do kettlebell-specific workouts and exercises. It's a whole field. And I feel like there...
That's just one example, but there are so many niche areas that you could either find and get certified in, and build a business out of or a side hustle out of. Or you can create a certification or training program-
Lizzy: And market it.
Lissa: ... and market it, and sell it to other coaches, trainers, business owners. And that's another business idea as well.
Lizzy: Right. So that's the flip side of we talked about having a niche certification that's not necessarily marketable, but maybe it is. Because in a business, it's often really important to differentiate yourself and to kind of niche-down to get more specific so that you can attract a very targeted group of people.
Lissa: Yeah. Finding clientele might be harder at first, but once you find them and you know how to use them-
Lizzy: You become known for that.
Lissa: You're known for that. Even the divorce specialist, because there are tons of divorce.
We'll, we should have an episode on divorce.
Lizzy: Is divorce worth it? Yes.
Lissa: But to have someone by your side who's a specialist in that thing, you're going to rely on them more than you would just a regular, old generalist, financial planner.
Lizzy: Yeah. And so for example, let's say... Because the first thing that came to mind, this isn't quite the right thing because it's law, and you have different types of law that you practice, and that is not necessarily a certification. But anyway, you're not just going to go to a lawyer for anything, and you can apply that to other things. Like, if you want to get more mobility in your body or I have a friend who's going to someone for pelvic training and stuff because she's going to have a baby. And so, there's strength and certain exercises that you do to maintain that after you have the baby. Very, very specific things. You're not just going to go to a personal trainer for that. It's just a general person.
So I think as information has spread and these kind of niche interests and communities have developed, there are more of these certifications to teach and also provide safe expertise. And a lot of the reason for this certification is risk management and safety, to make sure that there is someone that actually has the knowledge so you're not going to screw people over.
Lissa: Yeah. Or standardization.
Lizzy: Standardization, yeah.
Lissa: We have a friend who is an energy healer and there is a certification program for that, that in that industry is standard. That you could actually train for this stuff. So, there's so many things. It's not just the world of academia and-
Lizzy: For sure.
Lissa: ... finance business or whatever. I think you can find your thing. And sometimes, it is just to create that into a business or side hustle or something bigger might take more time. It might be tougher to find the clientele, but these are all areas you can go into if you don't like what you're doing right now. I think that's the big lesson that I have from, not just certifications but all types of education in adulthood, is it can open up new doors.
This is a side story. I have so many stories.
Lizzy: Girl.
Lissa: I was at a gathering last night with my Toastmasters Club, and this is people ranging from age 20 to age 90. It is a big range of people, so you get all these amazing, crazy stories. So I was talking to Bert, he's the 95-year-old and he was, what I believe, to be the longest running Toastmaster in the world. He retired from Toastmasters this year after 70 years.
Lizzy: Wow.
Lissa: But Bert was talking us through his entire life of different careers. He used to sell encyclopedias door-to-door, and then he started an entertainment company where he hired... He had clowns, magicians, all these things for different parties for all these celebrities because they were based in Los Angeles. There was one or two other careers he mentioned. I'm blanking now, but it was like you have so much opportunity to do different things in life.
Lizzy: Yeah. Why not?
Lissa: You can pivot all you want.
Lizzy: Yeah, and it could be a side hustle. It could be like my friend who has the PMP is also a bar instructor, and she used to do that on the side just because she liked it and it was fun. So, it's just a different way to navigate life. Gaining some skills. Think of a video game. You add this one, level this up.
Lissa: All right. Before we wrap up, did we... I feel like we've been hyping up certifications. We talked about the downsides. Financial cost, time.
Lizzy: It is a significant investment. It is often a big sacrifice. You're going to have to-
Lissa: How do you do it when you have a family, kids, other priorities? You just do it?
Lizzy: You just do it. Or you take longer, right? You just chip away at it. Often, it's something that your employer will support. And so whether that's financially, they'll support it. Some-
Lissa: Or let you use work time.
Lizzy: Let you use some work time to level up. That's a great advantage. But I think the biggest ones are financial cost, time and energy, the emotional toll that it takes, and then just the reality that it may not actually-
Lissa: Pan up, yeah.
Lizzy: ... do as much for you as you hoped it would in terms of new opportunities. I think it will if you're doing it for knowledge.
Lissa: All right.
Lizzy: Yeah.
Lissa: 20 cents?
Lizzy: 20 cents.
Lissa: 20 cents is the segment of the show where both Lizzy and myself, Lissa, each get 60 seconds to give our 2 cents on today's topic, whether it is a net positive or net negative for certifications. Where does 20 cents come from?
Lizzy: You get the opinion of two dimes.
Lissa: Two dimes.
Lizzy: One, two.
Lissa: All right, Liz. Working on your CAIA certification, are certifications worth it?
Lizzy: I mean, obviously. It's interesting though, given how much I value education and I'm constantly learning new stuff, when I thought about it, I was like I actually don't have many certifications. So for me, it is more about the knowledge. And you can do that, and you can learn, and gain experience and knowledge without doing certification at all. But in this case, yeah, it's worth it for me personally to just have some legitimacy and feel like I have that respect that I think I've already earned.
Lissa: Just to seal the deal.
Lizzy: Seal the deal, yeah. Put a stamp of approval on it, put some letters after my name. I know that's going to feel really good. And it's hard. It is not for the faint of heart, but I think it will be worth it.
Lissa: All right, net positive.
Lizzy: Net positive.
Lissa: Net positive.
Lizzy: All right, Liss.
Lissa: Mine's easy. I will start by saying I have some certifications that I don't use. I actually have a screenwriting, feature film writing certification. I never talk about that. No one knows about that. I've never written a feature film. Maybe once during the class. I have a bartending certification that I used very briefly when I was trying to have a side hustle to bartend. You don't necessarily need one. Some states require a license, whatever.
So I have some that I've never used in coding, but for whether or not I use it or not, I think certifications are worth it because not only have I been able to learn new things, meet friends, advance my career, but for a relatively low cost. I think yes, you have the cost of time and you have to carve out time to do it, but financial costs... Like, I've done all these things for less than a fraction of what it costs to go to grad school and undergrad.
Lizzy: Future episode, by the way.
Lissa: Yeah, future episode.
Lizzy: Future episode.
Lissa: So, net positive for me, absolutely. I think certifications are worth it. They can be worth it as long as you're kind of strategic on how you select what you pursue.
Lizzy: Final positive, they make you fucking interesting. Look at this girl, right? Bartending, screenwriting-
Lissa: Did you [inaudible 00:52:55]? Oh, improv?
Lizzy: ... coding, improv.
Lissa: It's crazy.
Lizzy: What can't she do?
Lissa: I learned too much. I think it's too much. That's why I don't talk about it.
Lizzy: No, I love it. That's why we're friends.
Lissa: It makes my branding confusing.
Lizzy: That is a cost. It makes your branding confusing.
Lissa: It makes me kind of confusing. So, this is what we think right now. At this moment in time, we are both net positive for certifications, but no one can make that decision but you.
What do you think? Are certifications worth it?
Lizzy: Hit us up. Let us know what you think. Let us know what certifications you have or what you want. And DM us on Instagram, @netnetpodcast, or email us at hi@netnetpodcast.com. And if you want to hit us up individually, here's where you can find us.
Lissa: I'm @wealthforwomenofcolor on TikTok, YouTube, and Instagram.
Lizzy: And I'm @live_well_lizzy on Instagram and TikTok.
Lissa: All references, statistics, and resources mentioned can be found in our show notes. This podcast is for educational, informational, and entertainment purposes only, and should not be constituted as financial advice. Remember to always do your own research, consult a professional as needed, and feel empowered to make your own damn decisions.