Lizzy and Lissa break down the hidden costs – financial and otherwise – of dating apps. Whether free or paid, dating platforms help connect people who are looking for love. But behind the convenience lies a range of costs, from subscription fees to the emotional toll of endless swiping and ghosting. Lizzy and Lissa explore how these apps can impact your wallet, mental health, and even your approach to relationships.
Lizzy and Lissa break down the hidden costs – financial and otherwise – of dating apps. Whether free or paid, dating platforms help connect people who are looking for love. But behind the convenience lies a range of costs, from subscription fees to the emotional toll of endless swiping and ghosting. Lizzy and Lissa explore how these apps can impact your wallet, mental health, and even your approach to relationships.
Main Topics
00:00 Introduction
01:19 Running The Numbers Segment
03:20 Personal Experiences with Dating Apps
06:06 Financial Costs
11:01 How Much Time and Energy Is Spent
28:47 Stigma
30:33 Safety Concerns
32:00 Catfishing and Deception
35:03 Why is Height Such A Big Deal?
43:59 Success Stories and Challenges
50:04 20 Cents Segment
References for Statistics
https://www.forbes.com/health/dating/dating-statistics/
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/02/02/key-findings-about-online-dating-in-the-u-s/
https://www.morganstanley.com/ideas/online-dating-2030
https://www.businessofapps.com/data/dating-app-market/
Lissa: Have you ever been catfished?
Lizzy: Oh, girl.
Lissa: I'm laughing. I'm laughing because I already know the answer to this.
Lizzy: Well, yeah. That is one of the challenges of dating today, especially on dating apps.
Lissa: Today, we're talking about are dating apps worth it?
Lizzy: Let's talk about it.
Lissa: Welcome to Net Net with Lizzie and Lissa, where we analyze hidden costs and empower you to make your own damn decisions in life. I'm laughing too much about this topic. I can't even do the intro. Each episode covers a different facet of life and at the end of each episode, we each give our takes on whether we think something is net positive or net negative.
Lizzy: I'm Lizzy, a strategist and consultant with over 17 years of experience in finance and investing.
Lissa: And I'm Lissa, a personal finance expert and an accredited financial counselor. We're best friends who talk about money.
Lizzy: And everything else.
Lissa: Obviously, everything else. Are dating apps worth it?
Lizzy: First up, running the numbers on dating apps.
Lissa: According to a survey from one poll and Forbes Health in 2023, 70% of respondents who met someone on a dating app said that it led to a romantic exclusive relationship.
Lizzy: 70%?
Lissa: I know that feels high. Who are you guys?
Lizzy: Wild.
Lissa: Who are you guys surveying?
Lizzy: They did not live in LA.
Lissa: They did not survey me.
Lizzy: In another 2023 survey from Pew Research, it showed that nearly 3 in 10 US adults have used a dating site or app. And more than 40% of respondents said that online dating has made dating easier for them.
Lissa: I thought that was low, but then you have to think about different generations probably have different ...
Lizzy: Yeah. That makes sense.
Lissa: Yeah. Different usage.
Lizzy: That makes sense.
Lissa: So, that same survey showed that Tinder is the most used dating site or app in the United States. 46% of online dating users say that they have used Tinder followed by about 3 in 10 who have used Match or Bumble at 28%.
Lizzy: Okay. Research from Morgan Stanley found that about 32% of single people in the US use online dating services and just a quarter of them pay. Wow. Okay. For those who spend on apps, they spend an average of $19 per month.
Lissa: Yeah. There's a cost for you. Globally, it seems like everyone is looking for love. According to the business of apps, dating app revenue has increased every year for the past eight years with global revenue reaching 5.34 billion in 2023.
Lizzy: Damn.
Lissa: Man.
Lizzy: I'm not surprised because it is like this cycle where you can't find it. So, you got to pay.
Lissa: You go back.
Lizzy: You got to keep going back.
Lissa: It's not like a one-in-done for most people. Man.
Lizzy: But we all know there's more to life than numbers. So, let's talk about it.
Lissa: Dating apps.
Lizzy: All right. Let's just set the stage.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: Obviously, Lissa is in a committed loving relationship, getting married soon, so she is not actively on dating apps.
Lissa: Nope.
Lizzy: But we got a long-storied history with these apps, girl. We go way back.
Lissa: Because these apps really started getting more popular when we were in our prime 20s into our 30s.
Lizzy: Prime time.
Lissa: Yeah. I mean there was matchmaking stuff before that that existed, but apps with the swipe right, swipe left stuff.
Lizzy: I feel like I first got on dating apps in maybe 2016 is what I'm kind of thinking.
Lissa: I felt like they were around a little earlier than that. But you were in relationships too.
Lizzy: I was in relationships. Yeah. So, I think that's when I first dove into it.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: And we had a period of time, we were both single and both trying to date.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: Emphasis on trying.
Lissa: Trying to date. Trying to date.
Lizzy: It's a wild ride.
Lissa: Do you remember ... Okay. What are all the apps that you've tried at one point?
Lizzy: Okay. I have been on Tinder. I think it's so interesting that each of them have their own brand, their own profile. So, I was on Tinder I think before it became just a hookup app, I feel like.
Lissa: Oh, is that what it is now? I mean I've been out the game.
Lizzy: I don't know. I don't know. I've been out the game too.
Lissa: Okay.
Lizzy: Okay. So, Tinder, Bumble, The League?
Lissa: Oh, I was on that one too.
Lizzy: Oh, shoot. There's one I think I'm forgetting.
Lissa: Coffee Meets Bagel?
Lizzy: No, never did that.
Lissa: Plenty of Fish?
Lizzy: Never did that. Hinge.
Lissa: Hinge.
Lizzy: Facebook Dating.
Lissa: Yep. Is that new or old?
Lizzy: That's new.
Lissa: Oh, okay.
Lizzy: Yeah. That's new.
Lissa: Okay. Okay.
Lizzy: That might be it. I feel like there's one more like nichey one.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: That was kind of like The League. But yeah, that might be it.
Lissa: Okay.
Lizzy: Yeah. How about you?
Lissa: I think, because I'm even forgetting what ... I've blocked them out of my memory that I've forgotten the names of them. But some of the ones you said, I definitely use Tinder, Bumble, Hinge, The league. Yeah. I think for the most part.
Lizzy: Okay.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: Yeah. Similar. Farmers Only?
Lissa: Yeah. Well, that's the interesting part is over the years, how many have sprung out because the concept works and then just a specific audiences, Christian Mingle. They have specific ones that by default already filter out people who don't fit that demographic.
Lizzy: Right. Certain subculture, demographic. Yeah. And it's smart. If you're trying to meet someone like-minded that you could date or build a life with or whatever, it makes a lot of sense.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: All right. So, let's talk about the costs of dating apps.
Lissa: Okay. Financial costs, get that one out of the way.
Lizzy: Yeah.
Lissa: Some of the apps, most apps are free or freemium. Freemium model.
Lizzy: Yeah. Most are freemium. So, I was out the game for many, many years, probably six or seven years total. And so, coming back into it and just dipping my toe in, I feel like now the freemium apps, the experience on the free version is very, very limited. It is a heavy push toward the paid features and it's so fascinating the way they do it.
So, for example, I'm currently on Hinge and they will let you see everyone who's liked you if you pay. And it is this weird dopamine response or you only get a certain amount of likes per day. And they really prey on the application, the desire to see more. And it's like the grayed out. From a user experience design perspective, it is expert, it is masterful.
And then they have some other tier. I know I think some of them have tiers where you can search outside of your geographic location for whatever reason or if they're going to go on a trip soon. There's all kinds of things. But I think a lot of them revolve around how much access you get and how much information you get about who's into you. Or you can make yourself a spotlight essentially on you so that everyone sees your profile, that kind of thing.
Lissa: Yeah. So, freemium basically on these dating apps, it's typically free is a very basic usage of it. And then the premium version that you have to pay for unlocks features. They keep creating these different features that'll help you out with whatever your goals are. So, I did pay back in the day for both Tinder and Bumble for I think different reasons-ish. I can't remember which one was which because it's all a blur to me now.
But I remember that my reasoning for paying for these apps was I didn't think I was going to be in the dating pool for super long. I was going to just try it for a couple months, see how it went. If it didn't go well, I'm going to be single for the next year. I was just going to give it a little go. So, I knew it wasn't going to cost that much all in.
But for one of them, maybe it was Tinder, the premium allowed you to hide yourself from the general public so that ... Wait. Yeah. So, basically, unless I liked someone I wouldn't ...
Lizzy: They couldn't see you.
Lissa: Yeah. I would only be shown to people that I've already liked. So, then that would weed out the people that like me ... Yeah. And then I wouldn't have to sift. Yeah.
Lizzy: Yeah. Yeah.
Lissa: It was something like that. And then I know on the other one I paid for ... I think there was ... it allowed you to filter by more things.
Lizzy: Yeah. That's a big, big component.
Lissa: Yeah. Because on the regular version you can filter by sexual orientation or something very basic.
Lizzy: Same like age.
Lissa: An age.
Lizzy: Usually. It's very basic.
Lissa: And then if you pay for more, you can filter out by, I think it was height and ...
Lizzy: Height, for sure.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: That's one of the big ones.
Lissa: I'm trying to think of what the other categories were even.
Lizzy: So, I just got back on an app this week and I paid. And part of the reason was for the filters and, this is on Hinge, you can filter by, yes, age. I think age and height actually are free.
Lissa: Oh, okay.
Lizzy: But what they're interested in and then politics, religion, any of those other check boxes.
Lissa: That's what it was. Yeah.
Lizzy: So, for me, there's specific things of like if you are non-monogamous ...
Lissa: Oh, yeah.
Lizzy: ... or you are just looking for something casual, I don't even want to see you. Don't waste my time. Or if we are not going to remotely align in terms of big worldviews, why waste my time even seeing you? So, that's a big feature.
Lissa: Yeah. It was lifestyle, things like that that I remember. Oh, smoking was a big one for me.
Lizzy: Smoking. Yep.
Lissa: Yeah. The ability to just filter out people who said that they smoked, it's just not a thing for me. No disrespect for people who like that, but it allows you to find people you might find yourself more compatible with or not, lifestyle-wise.
Lizzy: Yeah. Definitely.
Lissa: Yeah. Yeah. So, that's a cost. There is a financial cost if you want access to these features.
Lizzy: Yeah. Yeah.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: And I think that's really the key, financial cost is just the actual paying for the app. The big cost to me is time and energy.
Lissa: Oh, yeah.
Lizzy: So, like I said, I just got on the app. I dabbled earlier this year. I would download it and I'd swipe a little bit and then get matches and people would say, "Hi." Fuck out of here. How am I supposed to get to know someone when that's the conversation. It's like this really dry and it just got so overwhelming to me because the time and the energy that it takes to weed through people, converse, feel out if you even want to meet up or if there's actually something there, it is a lot. It is a big dedication of resources to being on apps.
Lissa: Something I heard that I think some apps do now that I wish they had when I was using apps was either putting a video in your profile of you talking or can you video message someone or voice memo someone because that gives you a little bit more than just hi. It makes them have to introduce themselves and you can hear how they speak.
Lizzy: So, I would imagine that's the case. On this one, you can put videos in your profile and audio prompts.
Lissa: People probably just put little ...
Lizzy: People do the audio prompts.
Lissa: Oh, they do.
Lizzy: It'll be like answer a question.
Lissa: Oh, okay.
Lizzy: This one is not a free form profile. It's all question-based, which is good and bad. They might have audio messages in app, I can't remember. But I have found, and maybe this is just my bias getting back in the game, that the effort and conversations has significantly diminished over the years. The amount of times the opener is like "Hi" or "How are you?" It's just there's nowhere to go from that. I am good. My day is good.
Versus in the past where it might be look at their profile, try to come up with something interesting to say or ask a question, I feel like it's gone downhill.
Lissa: Well, I feel like it's very similar to the evolution of the internet. You have so much information, so that can be a good thing. There's so many options for you to choose from versus in the past where it's hard to meet people because for whatever reason.
Lizzy: Sure.
Lissa: But when you have that much information and that much choices, you have so much more trash to sift through and have to find a diamond in the rough.
Lizzy: And paralysis of choice. That's a real psychological thing. They say you can only really digest seven options to make a choice. And I think that's actually significantly affected how people date. And we used to talk about this years ago, and I would imagine it's still true today, that people have so many options and maybe it's specific to big cities or not, but they know they have options right at their fingertips.
So, people are that much more reluctant to commit or even just dial into one option. And I think it's really affected the culture of dating and love and all that and probably to the detriment.
Lissa: Yeah. I don't know. Is Coffee Meets Bagel still a thing? I think it's ...
Lizzy: I have no idea.
Lissa: If it is, this is going to just date me back in the day. It might be different now. But this is what it was when it first came out a long time ago. It was you signed up, made an account, and then every day they would match you with a person at, I don't know, it was like 12:00 noon, lunchtime, you would get your match of the day, so it would limit it.
But then you started just seeing the same faces, because back then it was small. So, now, I think something like that could work now that there's bigger pools if these algorithms have better ways of matching you based on compatibility. But the problem with that is sometimes when it comes to compatibility, like you said, some people think they know what they want, but they don't know ... A lot of people, we don't know what we want.
We have a very limited view of what we think we're attracted to, sometimes, when you might surprise yourself by finding attraction in something that you would've never found before.
Lizzy: And interacting with someone goes such a long way. So, I completely agree. And I think meeting someone in person organically or through a friend where you get to experience their personality, their whole demeanor, the way they carry themselves, it's just so much more dynamic than what you can communicate in a profile. Not to mention the fact that you don't even know if you can really believe what's in the profile. And so, that makes it really challenging to know how to choose.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: How do you sift through these people? Is it purely off of first blush attraction? Is it off of a shared interest that's indicated? I have my little techniques I'm developing, but I have no idea if they're going to work, we'll find out. But it's tough.
Lissa: Yeah. I mean think about just how many pictures does it let you put now, because you have to curate the version of you that you want to put out to the world.
Lizzy: Right.
Lissa: Before I would put like, all right, I got to make sure there was one picture of me playing basketball just so they know I play basketball because some guys don't like that. Some guys don't like an athletic girl. And I'm like, "I just need to let them know that I hoop." There's things like that.
Lizzy: The same way. I literally have a video. Yeah.
Lissa: Yeah. Just know that I do this and if it turns you off, and it goes.
Lizzy: Isn't that so funny though. But you have to really synthesize yourself down. But I was actually thinking about this the other day, the nature of making a profile is putting forward the version of yourself that you think people will like, and there's something icky about that anyway. The full version of me, not just the highlights, but that's kind of just the way it goes.
Lissa: Yeah. But in that whole process too, and this is not just for dating apps, this is social media in general. It's like you really get to know what goes through a person's mind, the judgments that they make. And I think it's human nature. We all make judgments to a degree. But in terms of how much you let that control your worldview and your actions, that's a different thing.
But I remember one of my friends before saw me swiping and her partner, he's not someone I'm friends with or anything, he has total different worldviews than I. But he was like, "Oh, let's swipe for you." And I was like, "All right. Go ahead. Pick some people for me." And so, this profile came up. This is a story time.
Speaker 3: It's story time.
Lissa: There was a profile that came up where the guy in the picture clearly had a kid, and I think it might've even said it in the profile. And then so my friend's partner, he was like, "Nah. You don't want those problems. You don't want." I had to stop him. I was like, "What do you mean problems?" I was like, "Just because you wouldn't date someone with a kid, you're projecting that onto me."
And then he was just ... He didn't understand it. But I was trying to fight him on this. I was like, "Honestly, I'm in a mixed family. I wouldn't exist if my mom was closed off to dating someone who already had kids and was already previously married." My mom was my dad's second wife because his first wife passed away. So, I was like, "You don't know someone's story." And if you have that preference, that makes sense.
I think when I was younger, I had that preference where I was like, "Yeah. I don't really want to deal with someone who has kids. I want to start a life fresh with someone," that changed over the years. And so, one thing is like, "If you have that worldview and if you have that preference, cool." But if you are projecting that to other people based on a very limited, it shows a lot about a person what they will judge.
Lizzy: Yeah. Absolutely.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: It's really funny observing. I think I have a more critical view looking at it this time and seeing patterns, and obviously I'm only looking at profiles of men or not obviously, but I am only looking at profiles of men. And there's a couple of things I've noticed as a pattern of seeing, there are a lot of men that are commenting that they want a feminine woman and very, very clearly spelling that out. And I'm like, "That's really interesting and what does that mean?"
And for me, that's a red flag for me specifically and what I'm interested in, because the calling out of that, to me, maybe speaks to very traditional gender roles or something that I'm not sure I would fit into that mold. Not that I'm not feminine in my own way. So, there's things like that where for better or for worse, people are communicating their preferences and you have to intuit what they mean by it and say like, "Ah, not for me," or "Oh, yeah, sure, I fit that mold."
Lissa: Well, that's interesting, because I guarantee you that some people who say that and want that, their definitions probably differ. Some people probably actually mean that they want a super dainty woman who only wears heels, whatever. But there are probably a chunk of people who want that. But they're also cool with someone who watches sports or ... I don't even know how you define it. I don't even ... I'm thinking ...
Lizzy: Exactly. That's the thing. So interesting.
Lissa: But for you, it's interesting because the fact that they would say that in that way that puts you off from it.
Lizzy: Because I think, and this may be my own biases that I'm bringing to it, I feel like I've been aware of a lot of conversations around feminine energy, masculine energy. That's maybe something we talk about on a future episode. And those kind of roles and what is expected of a woman in a relationship. And I definitely don't conform to very traditional gender roles and I wouldn't want to in a relationship. So, that's why it's like, "Oh, we probably don't align on this."
Lissa: So, this might be a future episode too, but this just made me think of in line with the conversation about how you present yourself. I used to struggle ... When I was on dating apps, I was working at Google and I was making a lot of money. I would say for my age range, I don't even know, whatever. I was making six figures at a very early age. And I struggled on ... Sometimes I would have it in my profile where I worked versus not have it in.
Oftentimes, it would always come up like, "What do you do for a living?" And it would come up, even if I tried to be vague with it'd be like, "Yeah. But where?" People want to know that. And I felt like sometimes it hurt me because sometimes men didn't want to be with someone who might potentially be more successful, whatever that means, or make more than them.
And obviously, to me, that was a red flag. But I didn't want that to be a reason people filtered me out before getting to know me. That's why sometimes I was like, "Maybe I won't put it in there." And then I would have friends say, "No, don't hide who you are." So, it was always this struggle like, "What version of me do I put out?" Because I'm not wearing a Google shirt every day. You wouldn't know that if you just saw me walking on the street.
Lizzy: I think I definitely experienced that and whether it's the intimidation factor or wanting and feeling like that man should be the provider or whatever, I felt that that hurt me as well, being a more empowered, independent, I guess woman. And I think I used to be more mindful of how I presented it. I think about it now still as well.
But that view of I want them to get to know me before filtering that out. Now, I don't feel that way. I'm like, if this is something that they wouldn't be interested in, I don't want them to like the other things about me and then accept that. This is a critical part of my identity. And that's just how my relationship with myself has changed.
Lissa: Interesting.
Lizzy: Or my view of what that kind of attraction and dynamic should be. But it's a challenge. It's such a weird thing to put yourself out there.
Lissa: It's interesting, because I don't think all these little details of how much time and energy it takes, not just to swipe and meet up with people for dates, but the thinking that goes behind it, the frustration you feel.
Lizzy: Yeah.
Lissa: If you didn't match with anyone today or people ghost.
Lizzy: Yeah. Ghosting. Oh, my gosh. We have both experienced extreme ghosting. I mean, it's one thing to have a conversation with someone, and I feel like the ghosting etiquette has evolved so much over time to where if you haven't met someone in person, you don't have an actual real-life relationship with them, it's a little bit more acceptable to drop off.
Lissa: Yeah. You owe them nothing maybe.
Lizzy: You owe them nothing.
Lissa: Yeah. And it's easy to think like, "Oh, maybe they started talking to someone else at the same time. Maybe they don't check the app as much as I do," whatever. There's different ... You don't have that connection. You haven't built that. You don't know. I actually ... Yeah. You don't own them anything.
Lizzy: You don't owe them anything. Yeah. It's a whole other story when you're actually dating someone and that goes down, which we've both experienced.
Lissa: What about if you talk on the app, let's say you haven't met yet, but you've been chatting on it for a week or two, that's time. So, how about that ghost? If you get ghosted then, that's kind of messed up.
Lizzy: I have gotten ghosted then and I have ghosted then, honestly. I have. And for me, it's been what you alluded to. Sometimes you just get overwhelmed. You're in the moment, just like anything, embarking on dating, especially if you haven't dated. In my experience, not having dated for years and years and years, this being new and it's like, "Oh, my God. How do you even begin to find your person based on an app?"
And so, sometimes you might feel energized and be like, "Oh, this is exciting. This is cool. I'm going to put some energy into it." And then that wears off and it's just overwhelming or frustrating or discouraging or whatever. So, I have done that and I've come back and been like, "I've said that I just got overwhelmed. I tuned out of this for a couple weeks. Sorry."
And I am at a point now where I don't feel guilty about that. I think that's just kind of the way it goes, unfortunately. But I've been on the receiving end of it too. And it can be frustrating. And it's also interesting how you can get caught up in early conversations with someone and you have to remind yourself, you don't know this person. When you're just early chatting, you don't know them. You have an idea in your head of them.
And I used to really want to converse with someone quite a bit before I met them in person. Now, I'm recognizing that that might be detrimental, because I can be too reliant on that made up picture and it's kind of like a poor investment. I'd rather feel it out just quickly. And then if we think there's potential, let's meet up, I say this now, this hasn't happened. But I think that's my theory right now.
Lissa: But on the meetup, I remember to me in the past, yeah, I would need to chat a little bit with someone before I agreed to meeting in person. Because I felt like even though there was a little bit of a time suck, texting and getting to know each other that way without actually being in the same room, I felt like there was a bigger time suck for me in going on the date because of getting ready and then driving there. And then, I don't know, maybe being stuck there because they won't stop talking. I don't know.
So, that felt like a bigger commitment, whereas I know other people who are like, "No. Let me just feel the vibe now. I don't need to talk to you on an app. I don't even like texting." I can see both approaches.
Lizzy: Yeah. I think my approaches has changed slightly. If there's some kind of good signs, some green flags, I think they're shared interest or there's something about the way they communicate that, I appreciate. I think I'd be more inclined to go get coffee, what I consider to be a small date, not a big experience. And I'm not sure that I want to spend days and days and days or weeks even chatting. Because I think that can build a false sense of intimacy with someone you don't actually know.
Lissa: False. Is it false though?
Lizzy: Maybe, some of it I think can be false, because you just don't have enough context and so much of it is dependent on your imagination.
Lissa: Is there still a stigma when it comes to dating apps? I think our early era in them, there was. But nowadays is there?
Lizzy: I didn't think so. But recently I've met a couples and asked how they met and they were kind of, "Ah."
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: And afraid to say it, which surprised me. I thought at this point it's so commonplace. Who cares?
Lissa: Yeah. No. I think most people that I know who have met on a dating app will say, and they'll feel embarrassed about it and they'll make a joke about it. Obviously, they're happy because they found each other.
Lizzy: Or they'll have a fake story.
Lissa: Oh, yeah.
Lizzy: I've seen people do that.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: Do you know many what appear to be happy couples, successful dating app stories?
Lissa: Many? I feel like I know more than I can think of in my head, but I do feel like a lot of people end up finding their partner on a dating app.
Lizzy: That's encouraging.
Lissa: Yeah. No. I think it actually happens. It's interesting to think at the reason of why it's embarrassing for people ... because why would it be embarrassing?
Lizzy: I don't know. I don't get it.
Lissa: Do people pair it with like, "Oh, desperation so you had to go to an app." I don't see that, but I can understand.
Lizzy: Yeah. I mean, I think for older generations I could understand telling your parents something different maybe if you just think they're not going to be comfortable with that. Or the stigma, I think certain apps have a stigma of being hookup apps versus dating. And so, I could understand that. But yeah, I don't know. I feel like it's shifted quite a bit.
Lissa: Yeah. Is there a safety concern, the cost?
Lizzy: Absolutely.
Lissa: Okay.
Lizzy: Absolutely. And this is speaking as a woman. I don't know if men experience this as well. But yeah, you're talking to a stranger, which even just while you're still in the app can expose you to harassment and stalking and who knows who's really behind the profile. It can be really sketchy. And then certainly meeting up. I have had dates where I felt unsafe. We started sharing our locations with each other.
It's so funny that you'll see memes of ... I think I saw something recently on Twitter of girls be like, "Oh, in case I get murdered, this is where I'm going on a date." And you joke about it, because that's the reality of dating.
Lissa: Reality. Yeah. I always felt like, well, obviously ... and this doesn't always happen. But I try to make the first meet always be majorly public place where there's other people around. But even then you do the first in the public place. But at what point does this person, do you trust them enough that you can go to somewhere more secluded?
Lizzy: Right. Right. Yeah. Or if you go to a bar, watch your drink, you just never know. It can be absolutely dangerous. And there's a lot that you have to consider before going this route.
Lissa: Lots. So, on costs, tell me about a catfish. We opened up the show saying.
Lizzy: Oh, gosh. I've had several. So, one was just flat out. The pictures on his profile were many, many, many years old and the best picture ever possibly taken in his life. And he may have been a great person. Turns out the date was not successful for many other reasons. It was just not a vibe. But that doesn't set the tone well, right?
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: It creates distrust immediately when you don't look remotely like your pictures. And then I've also had what we coined as a hatfish, where I was soon experienced to know that it might be not a red flag, but it's just something to observe if every picture, the man is wearing a hat. And it turned out that this man was losing his hair, which I wouldn't have otherwise cared about. He was a really good-looking guy. But it was like the disconnect. Like, "Oh, it's unexpected."
And we continue. We didn't really date. But we ended up becoming friends. But that disconnect is like, "Oh, it just creates a strange experience where just be transparent about it," because you're going to get the letdown.
Lissa: You mean have some pictures without a hat?
Lizzy: Yeah.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: Just have some without a hat so that you don't feel deceived by what you're getting. That's my opinion on it.
Lissa: Yeah. But you can go the other way and say that someone might feel judged on their own insecurity, obviously.
Lizzy: Of course. Yeah.
Lissa: And not given the opportunity to chat, get to know them. And then later on be like, "Oh, okay. That's not a big deal."
Lizzy: That's true. It's very true.
Lissa: It could go either way, but it is.
Lizzy: Yeah. It could go either way.
Lissa: Yeah. But it is tough. It's like you never know. The information right in front of your face is literally ...
Lizzy: Curated.
Lissa: It's curated.
Lizzy: Yeah.
Lissa: It's curated.
Lizzy: Yeah. And for me, it's more to reiterate, it's not that the issue of balding was an issue.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: It was more just like, "Oh, how you presented yourself felt disingenuous."
Lissa: Right. Exactly.
Lizzy: Yeah. And I think that's for a lot of people. But I do understand why. And I think that could be challenging. If you have an insecurity, how do you put yourself out there? Put yourself in the best light. I am hyper sensitive to that for myself of only posting recent, recent, recent pictures.
Lissa: Yeah. I think I'm a cat ... I'm not on dating apps. But I think I'm a catfish right now. My profile picture on my Instagram is now four years old.
Lizzy: I know. But you still look the same.
Lissa: Nah. No. I came a little bit away from my accident that happened. I guess it's still me, whatever.
Lizzy: I feel like you still look the same.
Lissa: Yeah. But it's just hilarious what you consider a catfish versus not. I had a ... Okay. Tell me if this is a catfish story time.
Speaker 3: It's story time.
Lissa: So, okay. I'm 5'2". Let me just preface this by saying. And I might not even be 5'2". I think I'm 5'1".
Lizzy: Round up.
Lissa: I round up because 5'2" just sounds better. So, I was always ... I was particular about dating guys who were taller than me, but that was very easy to do. There was very, very few guys who were shorter than me, so whatever. I dated guys of all heights. There was a guy that I matched up with who I guess he played basketball too. And I think his profile said he was like 5'11' or 6 feet or something like that.
And I was like, "Okay. Cool. He's taller than me." And back then I would say height was more of a thing. To me now, it's a little bit less. I still don't know what it would look like if I towered over someone because I ...
Lizzy: Yeah.
Lissa: We'll get to the height.
Lizzy: Yeah. We'll come back at the height. I got things to say.
Lissa: In terms of this story. This was one of those situations where the first date wasn't really like a date. It was like we were chatting and I was, "All right. I got to go. I'm meeting up with my friends to go play basketball." And then he lived very close to where we were playing basketball. And so, I don't know, this was me risking me back then. I was like, "Oh, I'll pick you up." It's not something I would ever do in more modern days now that I know about more murderers and stuff.
But I went to go pick him up. It was daytime anyway. So, I went to go pick him up and he opened the door, got in the car, and this was the first time we were meeting or whatever, he was nice. We got to where the gym was. I parked in the parking lot and he got out of the car. I got out of the car and we were like the same height almost. Okay. He's probably a little taller than me. He lied about his height by 6, 7 inches.
Lizzy: That's egregious.
Lissa: Again, it wasn't the height itself, it was the lie.
Lizzy: Right. It's the lie. It's lie.
Lissa: It was like the deceit. It was like, "Why would you even put that on your profile?"
Lizzy: Exactly.
Lissa: Do you think anyone's going meet up with you and ...
Lizzy: You're not fooling anyone.
Lissa: Yeah. You're not going to fool anyone.
Lizzy: Right. And you just wasted my time because of the lie.
Lissa: Yeah. I mean, whatever. I think he was decent at basketball because that's where we ended going. But in my head, I was like, "Oh, man. This might be a new ... Well, we might be picking up a new forward in my basketball team." I was thinking like that. And it was like, "No. We're not."
Lizzy: Nope. No, sir.
Lissa: We already have enough point guards. We're fine.
Lizzy: Gosh.
Lissa: So, anyway ...
Lizzy: That's bold.
Lissa: Height is an interesting one.
Lizzy: That's a catfish for sure.
Lissa: For lying.
Lizzy: For lying. Yeah.
Lissa: Lying.
Lizzy: Yeah. Yeah. You're representing yourself differently.
Lissa: But I lie about an inch or.
Lizzy: That's rounding. Rounding is not lying. Every guy that's 6 foot, I feel like on dating apps is actually 5'11". I think that's just an understanding. You round up.
Lissa: Okay. So, if you're rounding up an inch, inch and a half, that's fine.
Lizzy: Inch and a half is pushing it. That's like your NBA height, Lissa. What you're listed at.
Lissa: Well, this is supposedly at the end of the day, you're shorter than when you started the day because ...
Lizzy: What? Are you measuring yourself?
Lissa: I don't do this. But this is what ... I think I read this a long time ago. Because you're vertebrae ...
Lizzy: You compress. Yeah.
Lissa: Yeah. You compress a little bit. So, I would say by the end of the day, I might be 5 feet in 3 quarters. At the beginning of the day, I might be closer to 5'2". Either way, we're talking about an inch, inch and a half. I think that's acceptable.
Lizzy: That's significant.
Lissa: No. Okay. Someone who's 5'10" and a half says they're 6.
Lizzy: That's bold.
Lissa: Okay. Okay. Okay. Fine.
Lizzy: Okay. I am 5'10". I don't say I'm 6 foot.
Lissa: But do you ever round down because you're a girl?
Lizzy: I am 5'10" in shoes.
Lissa: Okay.
Lizzy: So, I actually very inconsistent. I was 5'9" for most of my life. And then I grew in my late 20s.
Lissa: What?
Lizzy: Yeah.
Lissa: You can grow in your late 20s?
Lizzy: Apparently. Yeah. I grew.
Lissa: How come this didn't happen to me?
Lizzy: Just like a little bit. My feet grew. It was annoying. It was like I can't wear any of my old shoes, which is many pairs. So, I often say 5'10". But if we're being on medical stuff, I'll say 5'9" because I'm not in shoes, I guess. I don't know.
Lissa: Okay. Okay.
Lizzy: But I'm in between, technically.
Lissa: But let's talk about why is height such a thing in general and especially for men? I think men lie about height more.
Lizzy: Yeah. I don't ...
Lissa: I don't have a stuff for that.
Lizzy: I don't know that women lie about it. I've never heard of women lying about height.
Lissa: Me.
Lizzy: Except of rounding.
Lissa: Okay.
Lizzy: But yeah. So, I think it just goes back to what is considered attractive, our human nature. And I think for men, from an evolutionary standpoint, physical stature, implies protection and dominance and all of those very primal things. And there's weird statistics on this of the financial success of taller men. It is a really big thing that's valued in society, even subconsciously. People perceive tall men to be more successful. And I very much empathize with men that you can't change that about yourself.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: That's hard.
Lissa: Well, apparently now you can add inches to your knees. I don't know.
Lizzy: Why you're so long as knee.
Lissa: I don't know. I thought I read something about like ...
Lizzy: Oh, gosh.
Lissa: ... they stretch you. I don't know. But anyway, generally it's not a thing you can change.
Lizzy: Yeah. Yeah. Fairly fixed. So, I get it. And to your point, in a bar or in a social environment, if you met someone and you might find them attractive or they're funny or whatever, something that draws them to you, that's different than being able to handpick and curate and literally filter for this pool of people.
And so, I understand men being like, "I'm awesome. I'm great. I'm attractive. I have all these other things to offer, but I'm an inch too short." That's stupid. And I think it's become a big thing for women to want someone over 6 feet.
Lissa: Or just over like, "I only want guys this height and above."
Lizzy: Yeah. But I do think the 6 feet marker is a big thing, which is why so many men who are 5'10", 5'11" say they're 6 feet. It's interesting.
Lissa: Which is funny because people my height is like ...
Lizzy: Yeah. You're looking at them anyway.
Lissa: Yeah. You're looking up.
Lizzy: Well, and that's been so interesting as a tall woman, I've dated men all different height. I mean, really since I was a teenager, I've dated a couple guys who are just a little bit shorter than me. I prefer a taller person, but it's not the end of the world. And so, it's so interesting and weird for short women to like, "Oh, I need someone that's over 6 feet." Like, "Save that for us. We're tall."
Lissa: I know.
Lizzy: It's annoying. It's annoying. But it's a big thing. And I think that's one of the probably biggest things people filter for.
Lissa: Yeah. But going back to what we were talking about at the beginning of the episode, just like the filters in general of thinking, you know what you want and maybe you do, maybe you have a good grasp of what you're attracted to physically, sexually, whatever. But then sometimes you don't and you just have this picture in your head that you've created and it's like, "Yeah. What if the dopest human being you've ever met is an inch underneath your whatever filter you put on your profile?"
Lizzy: Girl, it's something being very, very transparent. It's something I'm grappling with now of historically, I've chosen people who aren't good for me. So, let me re-evaluate what I'm attracted to. And I literally had this thought the other day, how much does physical attraction matter? There's people who I look at their profile and I'm like, "You seem amazing and I'm just not physically attracted to you." But what do I do with that? Am I not giving them a chance?
Lissa: We got to get you on Love is Blind. It's the show where ...
Lizzy: But does that mean that physical attraction doesn't matter at all?
Lissa: No. It does matter. They end up picking up a lot. The show is really a bunch of good-looking people anyway, for the most part. But the element of getting to know someone ...
Lizzy: Increases your attraction too.
Lissa: Increases your attraction.
Lizzy: Their appearance. For sure.
Lissa: Before you get their appearance. So, their appearance gets this boost regardless.
Lizzy: Yeah. No. I agree. I agree with that. And there's also things like intangibles, like charisma. Someone who just in a static photo may not do it for you, but the way they carry themselves, speak, et cetera.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: It's hard. Challenges. Okay. We talked about a lot of the costs have ... Obviously you didn't meet Alan on a dating app.
Lissa: I did not.
Lizzy: But did you have any successes what you would consider to be successes?
Lissa: Yeah. I had a couple of long-term relationships from dating apps.
Lizzy: Okay.
Lissa: Good dudes. Not cheaters. It ended up just not working out for compatibility. As you grow older, you guys change, things like that. So, I had a couple of those. And I will say that dating apps were great for ... especially when you're busy. So, we said it could be a time suck, but it also can save you a lot of time, because rather than having to go out every night of the weekends, spend money to go to networking events or to bars ...
Lizzy: Where there may be no one.
Lissa: Yeah. You can pay that one monthly fee or do the free version and swipe from the comfort of your home.
Lizzy: That's actually a really good point, because now that I'm single and I'm aware of dating. If I'm out, I'll scout look around and be like, "All right. Is there anyone eligible here and I'd be interested in?"
Lissa: Yeah. Numbers, right?
Lizzy: More often than not, there's nobody. I'll be out and about and there's no prospects.
Lissa: Oh, man. I was thinking of you. There was a cute guy. Am I allowed to say that, because I'm about to get married?
Lizzy: Yeah.
Lissa: Okay. There's a cute ... I can look at guys. There's a cute guy yesterday at the sandwich shop that I was like, "Oh, one of my friends would like this guy." I was like, "Yeah. You were one of the other homies would, yeah."
Lizzy: Put me on.
Lissa: Yeah. Maybe I'll just keep going back to the sandwich shop to find him for you. But yeah. So, it's just numbers. It's a numbers game. So that's why I think there is benefit to you save some time. You can save some money by not going out as much and be on your phone.
Lizzy: Right. And if you do have very specific lifestyle things, you can weed out some of that ideally.
Lissa: But it's all a balance. Because if you're just like, "I will never be with someone who, whatever, insert this," and then you end up loving everything about a person, and that doesn't matter to you anymore. You can't really get that if you filtered them out already.
Lizzy: Isn't it so funny? If you think about people that you maybe have dated that you met in real life, would you have swiped for them if you saw a profile?
Lissa: I would've ...
Lizzy: I think I would have for all of my boyfriends.
Lissa: Yeah. I would've definitely swiped on Alan, because he's so good looking and a good person. But I had this thing for the longest time that I always wanted a guy who played basketball. Alan does not. He's from the UK. He grew up playing soccer or football is what he would get mad at me for saying soccer. And now, I love watching soccer. I watch it with him. I'm an Arsenal fan now, and I love it.
He watches NBA. He went to a game last year, even without me, but he doesn't play. He could actually shoot now.
Lizzy: Oh, yeah. I saw him the other day. Yeah.
Lissa: But in my mind in the past, I was like, "No. It's such a big lifestyle thing for me. I play multiple times a week. I would like someone I could go do that with." We got together under different circumstances through a friend, and it does not matter to me. I do not care. If he listens to this, you don't have to learn how to play basketball. Okay. Just keep playing soccer.
Lizzy: We love you the way you are, Alan.
Lissa: Yeah. I'll join a soccer league with you maybe. I don't know. So, there are things like that I would've never done. So, yeah. I think I probably blocked myself in many on apps before.
Lizzy: From great people. Yeah.
Lissa: From great people.
Lizzy: I definitely did that. I was like ... I think there's a balance between being ... I was picky about the wrong things. It's hard. I go back and forth now of like, "Keep an open-mind." But then also I have my friends being like, "You're amazing. You don't want just some random ass dude." So, it's hard. What are the things you want to be picky about? And I think I'm getting better at, it just being the more foundational, I guess, lifestyle worldview.
I actually saw something recently that was like, "You want to align in terms of your values, your lifestyle, your long-term goals and attraction?" Those were the four pillars. And I was like, "Yeah. That's helpful. A good way to look at it." I have not had any major dating successes. A couple of people I would date for a couple months maybe. Nothing really materialized. And a lot of those were more dramatic, messy, situationship kind of things. I think that's kind of what I associate with it.
Lissa: I have a couple friends that we dated, tried to date, and then we ended up becoming friends and we are still friends.
Lizzy: So, that's what I have.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: I have friends, a few that we tried to date and became friends, but many that we never really ended up dating.
Lissa: You're just like, "Oh, we're into the same stuff."
Lizzy: We just became friends. And including one of my very best friends, friend of the pod, Jamie, we met in just funny circumstances. We were on a trip to New Orleans. I was swiping. I saw him and I was like, "Oh, look at this guy." And I saw that he knew one of our very good friends, Drew. And Drew was like, "Oh, yeah. That's my boy." And we ended up hanging out and we've been friends for years and years. So, those have been my successes in terms of friendship. Dating, not so much.
Lissa: Yeah. One more thing on the energy, because it could be a energy suck.
Lizzy: Yeah.
Lissa: You get ghosted. You feel a way. You spend time swiping. Don't find anything. It could be an energy suck. But I also think it can be an energy saver, because you are in control of when you're on and off. If you go this whole week, you're like, "I don't have the capacity to think about dating or anything like that. Stash that app away. Don't use it." But like, "Okay. I'm sitting down on the couch this weekend for an hour. I got time. I can dedicate my energy to that." So, there's that.
Lizzy: That's a really good point. That's a good reframe. Good reframe. Good reframe.
Lissa: Anyway. Yeah. All right. 20 cents.
Lizzy: 20 cents.
Lissa: 20 cents is the segment of the show where both Lizzie and myself, Lissa, each get 60 seconds to give our 2 cents on today's topic. Whether we think it is a net positive or a net negative, today we're talking about dating apps. Where does 20 cents come from?
Lizzy: Well, you get the opinion of two dimes.
Lissa: Two dimes.
Lizzy: Two dimes.
Lissa: All right. Liz, you are up first. Are dating apps worth it?
Lizzy: God, this is a tough one for me. In the past, I would've said no. I definitely did it and tried it for years on and off, and I don't feel like it was really ... the output was really, the juice was worth the squeeze. Now, as I mentioned, I'm trying it out again and it kind of remains to be seen, but I think it's worth a try. I'll say that. I don't know if it's actually worth it in the end of the day, but I'm going to give it a good old try and see how it works.
I don't have to commit to a long-term. And it just is helpful to kind of expedite the process. So, for now, I guess I'm a net positive.
Lissa: Right. Current day.
Speaker 4: Net positive.
Lizzy: Lissa, this is a weird one for you to answer, but ...
Lissa: Yeah. Well, I can answer it. Well, obviously because getting married, I already have a partner. Right now, I'm not using them and don't ever plan to. Hopefully, we're together forever. But I can speak on in the past. In the past, I think it was a net negative for me because I did find it convenient. But I think who I was at that time, dating apps weren't good for me.
It's like the things I cared about, the things I was looking for, the amount of emotion I put into it, like getting ghosted would hurt my feelings. I was a different person back then where it wasn't conducive to my, I guess, emotional health. Even financial costs didn't really care. I was happy to pay for it. But even back then, looking back at that moment in time, I think it was a negative.
Lizzy: That resonates. Yeah. Man, that's a maturity, girl.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: Some growth there. I like that.
Lissa: Yeah. Net negative. Net negative.
Lizzy: Net negative. All right.
Lissa: Well, remember, this is what we think right now at this moment in time. Liz might not like them in a month from now.
Lizzy: In a week. Tomorrow ...
Lissa: She might be net negative.
Lizzy: ... I might delete this. It's not worth it.
Lissa: She might be net negative tomorrow. Who knows? But only you can make that decision. What is best for you? Are dating apps worth it?
Lizzy: Hit us up. Let us know what you think. DM us on Instagram @netnetpodcast, or email us at hi@netnetpodcast.com. If you want to follow us individually, here's where you can find us.
Lissa: I'm @wealthforwomenofcolor on TikTok, YouTube and Instagram.
Lizzy: And you can follow me on Instagram and TikTok @live_well_lizzy.
Lissa: All references, statistics and resources mentioned can be found in our show notes. This podcast is for educational, informational, and entertainment purposes only, and should not be constituted as financial advice. Remember to always do your own research, consult a professional as needed, and feel-