Lizzy and Lissa break down the hidden costs – financial and otherwise – of postgraduate degrees. From student loan debt to delayed income, mental health strain, and the opportunity cost of time, they explore what you really give up when you go back to school — and how to decide if it’s truly worth it.
Lizzy and Lissa break down the hidden costs – financial and otherwise – of postgraduate degrees. From student loan debt to delayed income, mental health strain, and the opportunity cost of time, they explore what you really give up when you go back to school — and how to decide if it’s truly worth it.
Main Topics
00:00 What are Postgraduate Degrees?
01:30 Running The Numbers Segment
03:00 Personal Experiences with Master’s Degrees
11:01 Evaluating the Worth of a Master's Degree
17:20 Perspectives on Postgraduate Education
26:44 Sacrifices and Personal Stories
27:33 The Burden of Student Loans
29:14 Questioning the Value of Post-Graduate Degrees
30:03 The Shift Towards Practical Skills and Entrepreneurship
33:53 Considering an MBA and Other Post-Graduate Degrees
41:52 20 Cents Segment
References for Statistics
https://www.bls.gov/careeroutlook/2023/data-on-display/education-pays.htm
https://freopp.org/whitepapers/does-college-pay-off-a-comprehensive-return-on-investment-analysis/
https://www.educations.com/articles-and-advice/master-studies/masters-degree-salary-guide-2024
https://wallyboston.com/masters-degrees-no-value/
Lissa: A post-graduate degree refers to advanced academic programs pursued after completing a bachelor's degree. This can include master's degrees, doctorates, and other professional degrees, including JDs for law, MDs for medicine and MBAs for business. Are post-graduate degrees worth it?
Lizzy: Let's talk about it.
Lissa: Welcome to Net Net with Lizzy and Lissa where we analyze hidden costs and empower you to make your own damn decisions in life. Each episode covers a different facet of life. And at the end of each episode, we each give our takes on whether we think something is net positive or net negative.
Lizzy: I'm Lizzy, a strategist and consultant with almost 20 years of experience in finance and investing.
Lissa: And I'm Lissa, a personal finance expert and a certified financial planner. We're best friends who talk about money.
Lizzy: And everything else.
Lissa: In today's episode, we are discussing post-graduate education, which can be a major financial decision for most people. However, we want to remind you that this episode is informational and educational in nature and should not be misconstrued as financial advice. We share our experiences to help educate, but you should always consult with a professional for guidance as needed. Are post-graduate degrees worth it?
Lizzy: First up, running the numbers on post-graduate degrees.
Lissa: According to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics, workers' earnings increase as educational attainment rises with median weekly earnings more than double for those with a professional degree compared to someone with just an associate's degree.
Lizzy: Wow. But earnings are only one side of the story. Last year, the foundation for research on equal opportunity published a white paper that dug into the ROI, that's the return on investment, of education. It turns out that while some post-graduate degrees offer substantial financial returns, nearly 43% of master's programs have a negative ROI due to high costs and modest earnings gains.
Lissa: Yeah. I have a theory on why that is, but we'll talk about that in the episode. Interestingly, the same white paper said that doctoral and professional degrees have a 77% positive ROI.
Lizzy: Damn. That's a big difference.
Lissa: Very big difference.
Lizzy: All right. Of course, a lot of this depends on specific degrees and fields of study. For example, engineering and computer science master's degrees can earn between 88,000 and 110,000 annually on average while degrees in arts and humanities often yield lower financial returns.
Lissa: Well, we know there's more to life than numbers and statistics, so let's talk about it. Are post-graduate degrees worth it?
Lizzy: All right. We got a lot to say, I'm sure.
Lissa: Context. You have a post-graduate degree?
Lizzy: I have a post-graduate degree. So, my background, I studied communications at UCLA, as was Lissa. And frankly, I just didn't know what to do after that. I graduated and it felt like getting a bachelor's degree fulfilled all of the requirements I was supposed to do as an adult and I pursued a bunch of different options.
I thought about going to fashion school. I looked into an MBA program. I ended up going to Duquesne University in Pittsburgh. Side note, I'm sure I've talked about on another episode because I was chasing a boy, but I entered into this design and technology program. So, my master's degree is in media arts and technology, basically computer design, development, graphic design.
Lissa: So, that was a master's program and you took no time off. You went directly after your bachelor's?
Lizzy: Six months off. Yeah. I think I just wasn't ready to just be working. Because I had worked in a professional full-time job all through college and I was just searching for something else. I thought, why not? As far as master's degrees go, it was fairly affordable, I'll say. I didn't have any student loans or any debt from undergraduate. I want to say the tuition, this was a private school, but it was about 30,000 I think a year. It was a two-year program. But I did do a graduate assistantship, which is basically like a part-time job that got me free tuition and a stipend.
Lissa: For the whole?
Lizzy: No. So, I started spring semester. I got the assistantship the following fall, and I did it that spring. My last semester, they were fucking crazy. I couldn't do it anymore. The people I worked with, I was like, I'd rather take on loans.
Lissa: But so up until that point, it was fully covered tuition as you worked?
Lizzy: For a year of my two years, I had free tuition. I had to pay my living expenses, so I still had a regular job and it was a small stipend. So, I think I ended up with one year of tuition in debt, which was maybe 30,000, and eventually I paid it off, but it can be a lot worse for a lot of people.
Lissa: Yeah. And so, that's a master of science.
Lizzy: That's a master of science in I think it's media arts-
Lissa: Media arts and technology.
Lizzy: ... and technology, which means a lot of things because it was this interesting degree program which we can go into. All right. What about you?
Lissa: So, similar to you, when I was at UCLA getting my bachelor's in communications, we just so happen to have the same major, I was thinking that at that time, I needed something else to stand out in the job pool. I think I had applied to so many internships during college. Some I got, a lot I didn't get and I was like, "How can I stand out in this job pool?"
So, that was part of the reason, and I think another reason was I wasn't ready to work yet. So, I was like, I need to keep going to school. I didn't mind school. School was fun to me and it didn't really make sense to me what the cost was at that time because my parents were helping. And by helping, they were partially paying and partially relying on scholarships and loans. And then partially, it was me having to work as well.
So, I didn't really understand the full picture of how much education cost at the time. I just knew it was important definitely in my culture. And so, while I was in college at UCLA, I was like, I need something else. I actually applied to do two different things. Teach For America, which is an organization that places you to teach somewhere in the nation, where they need more teachers, which is a job. You get paid for it. Or I also applied to a grad program at USC, the University of Southern California.
And right when I was making the decision to whether I should become a teacher and do Teach for America, I got my acceptance into USC and I was like, "Yeah, I'd rather just go to school some more and get a master's degree." The word "master's" felt cool. I didn't really know. I think when I first told my mom, she had mixed feelings because she's very supportive of education. She was a teacher. She was an immigrant. So, it's like education is so important, but she also knew that, okay, you have to pick a private school.
I can't remember the exact cost. It was somewhere around what Liz said, like 30k per year. It was around that. I just know that in terms of paying for units, at the time at UCLA, I remember one unit being, I don't know, $400, something like that. So, to take a class, it was like, I don't know, four units, five units.
At USC, I remember it being more like 4,000. It was so much more. It was something like that where it was like, "Oh, we're playing different cards here." So, anyway, that's what led me to getting my master's. Also, it was called master's in communication management and I had a focus in entertainment and that's because I wanted to work in the entertainment field. In my career, I was like, "I want to work, I don't know, in a film studio." I don't even know what it meant at the time.
Lizzy: Sure. Yeah. You were young.
Lissa: Yeah. I needed more degrees. That's what it was. And then I got it. So, that's why I ended up with a master's.
Lizzy: And then how much financially, did you end up with a lot of debt? Did it set you back?
Lissa: Oh, yeah. Okay. So, I already had some debt from undergrad. We took out loans. In order for us to be able to pay for living costs, I think my mom and dad were pulling from their home equity line of credit. So, luckily, we owned our home, so that was part of it. But we also took out a lot of loans, mostly federal loans. So, I had some loans coming out of undergrad.
I want to say, I have to ask my mom for the exact numbers, but it's maybe between 10 and 20,000. But then when I went to grad school, that added another 50, 60,000. So, I left school with 70k plus in student loans. And I too did a stipend, assistantship thing. I don't even know what it was called. I worked for a professor, but that only covered 10k of tuition out of the 60k that I signed up for.
So, yes, I walked away with a lot of debt. And then my first job out of grad school was getting paid 29k a year. So, it was like I took on all this debt and I'm getting paid so little for having a master's.
Lizzy: Did you defer or how did you handle ... Were you even able to make payments?
Lissa: Yeah. The way that I remember it at the time was initially, I did the program where your first year or two has lower payments.
Lizzy: Yeah. It's like a graduating.
Lissa: Yeah. It's like a transition period. So, that was fine. And then the payments ballooned after that and I just struggled. I was going in deeper in debt because I was using credit cards to fund my life. Luckily two years after being in the workforce making that low salary, I got hired at Google. So, my salary jumped up and then soon after, I was able to really start paying it down my debt.
Lizzy: Yeah. Does Google, I know they have a lot of transparency around salaries, do they specifically pay more for graduate degrees?
Lissa: You mean?
Lizzy: Do you get a bump? A base salary, do you get a bump if you have higher education?
Lissa: You know what? I don't know. Probably for me, the way that I, and we'll talk about the benefits of getting a master's degree, what I think my master's degree helped with was, so when I applied at Google, I actually just applied online. I didn't have a referral. I didn't have a point of contact. I just applied online. And what the recruiter told me after was the job that I got was only posted for a day because they got over a thousand resumes in one day. And so, they have technology that helps sift through these resumes. So, I think I want to believe-
Lizzy: It just gave you a higher-
Lissa: ... me having a master's helped me break through that first vetting of the resumes because it was an admin assistant job. It was like an administrative job that you don't need a master's to do admin work, but in order to get in the door, I felt like having something on my resume helped me.
Lizzy: Yeah. I could see that. I think even when I've looked at resumes for hiring or I've been in only one similar experience, I think it's an extra notch in your belt, even if it's not directly applicable to the job, which there's something to that. It shows a dedication to your education to learning. There are some inherent things you can infer from that, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's worth it.
Lissa: All right. Okay. So, what did you learn in your master's program and do you use it?
Lizzy: Yeah. So, I think my situation was a little unique because mine was almost a career shift by doing this program. And one caveat. So, I really wanted to do an MBA program and I was only 21 when I graduated from UCLA. I was very young, but I had been working in an agency for almost four years.
So, a lot of MBA programs require you to have pretty extensive work experience, and so most people don't apply until they're like 28 or so. And I was very frustrated by that fact because I thought, well, I already do have work experience. And there's probably other reasons. I think maybe I applied to couple programs, I don't remember exactly, but the program I entered in had two concentrations. One was advertising, the other was design and development.
I started in the advertising and realized on the first day, I could probably teach this class because I've been working at an agency and it was also, LA is very different from Pittsburgh. My real-world experience here was probably a little more sophisticated than the person who had been teaching advertising but not doing it. And so, I was like, "All right, I'll do design and development."
And really what this spoke to was my desire, my whole life to do something artistic but to feel like I had to do something academic. So, I had forced myself down this academic path when really, I'm a creative person. Since I was a little kid, "I wanted to be an artist."
And so, I was like, oh, okay, well let me just dabble in design. This program didn't require a portfolio to get in, and so it was like a ground-up graphic design and design principles program with web development mixed in. And that enabled me. But in the agency, I'd been doing copywriting and strategy, then I shifted and did design and development and did everything from that point.
So, I learned a ton. I will say the program was easy. It was like. I don't know if it's compared to LA or UCLA or it felt like middle school classes. So, I took it upon myself to make every project really challenging to add in. I did three independent study classes because I wanted to learn. So, I did. I got a lot out of it because I made myself in a lot out of it.
Lissa: You put it in.
Lizzy: But it was easy.
Lissa: That's funny. And you get to call yourself a master, you got a master's.
Lizzy: Yeah. So, I learned a lot, but I didn't need it. I could have learned all of those things on my own and I tell people that all the time, particularly for this field. It did help me though to have the structure.
Lissa: Yeah. You probably could have learned all that on YouTube.
Lizzy: Yeah, 100% and probably better to be honest.
Lissa: Yeah. Crazy. Dang.
Lizzy: Yeah. All right. What about you?
Lissa: I don't know. My master's, the kind of classes I took were in film theory. I took a really cool class on sci-fi films, which I thought was interesting because now when I watch TV and movies, part of me is picking out the themes that they're trying to say. But anyone can do that. You don't need a degree to do that.
There was another class I took on charisma because communications is a lot about, especially being a public figure, having charisma is this X factor that you can't always teach that some people have, but there are specific qualities. So, it was analyzing and learning things that I wouldn't have known to go out and learn on my own unless you just watch a lot of documentaries and things like that.
But did I ever need it for the future of my career? No. I think it was for me, it was just the stamp, the piece of paper, putting it on my resume is what helped me in my career. Not to say the program I thought was cool. I'm still friends with a few people that I met in grad school. Especially in Los Angeles, there are some schools, as you all know, there's Ivy League schools, there's certain schools that if you have an association with them, it just helps out your network.
So, UCLA for me and University of Southern California has an extensive network in all fields, but definitely in the entertainment field here in LA. So, just having that and as a conversation starter around the city I think has been helpful. But again, nothing that I would think that you would've needed to pay $60,000 for a degree for-
Lizzy: Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. I think I don't regret it, but there are so many other ways to go about.
Lissa: Well, that stat we opened up with was the difference between a master's degree, which both Liz and I have master's degrees in these various fields that no one even thinks of to get a master's. And then you have the more professional degrees, like JD is a jurist doctor, sorry, and an MD for medical, and then MBA, which you alluded to, master's of business administration, which are very unique, like post-graduate degrees that have I think a lot more status-
Lizzy: For sure. Yeah.
Lissa: ... across whatever industries they're in. Do you need a JD to practice law?
Lizzy: Yes. There is a loophole, I know this because of Kim Kardashian, where you can get a certain amount of apprenticeship hours and then still be eligible to take your bar. I might get that detail wrong, but she didn't go to law school, but she's studying. But typically, yeah, you need it.
Lissa: And same with to be a doctor, you have to go to med school.
Lizzy: Yeah. So, I have a couple other examples of just people in my life that I'll share. So, my mom got her master's degree and one note on why it was meaningful to me, no one in my family had ever gotten a master's degree and in my immediate family, no one else had a bachelor's degree. So, I got a bachelor's degree or my mom got it the same time I did, but then I was the first person to get a master's. So, that was a badge for me.
And then she went and got hers in counseling, but she's a teacher or was a teacher, now is a counselor. But for most school districts there's a very specific formula basically for the number of graduate units that you have add more pay. And it's not degrees, it's units.
Lissa: Oh, wow.
Lizzy: So, she was able with her graduate degree and a couple other classes she took max out her salary where as a teacher, you typically think you're maybe making like 50,000. She made over $100,000, which is a great salary as a teacher because she had these graduate degrees. And so, that's one note. One of my other best friends is a doctor, took on loads of debt at a private school in med school, did a one-year master's, living expenses for years and years and years, but it is making millions of dollars. But that was a grind. So, there can be that tradeoff.
Lissa: Yeah. I think when there's nothing else, depending on your background, where you come from, if you don't have any connections or other legacy ways of getting into an industry or a company or getting paid more, sometimes you do have to rely on things that are more accessible. And not to say that all education is accessible, there's still rigorous application processes.
Lizzy: For sure.
Lissa: But it is in a way, an equalizer or a way to get ahead of others if you can navigate it in the right way. So, the stat was that some professional degrees have like 77% of those types of degrees have a positive ROI. Meaning you might spend a couple hundred thousand dollars on med school, but you'll make that back in a couple years.
Whereas there's some programs that I know of a big one, and I don't know what the landscape is today, but definitely in the last five to 10 years I've seen a lot of friends go to get their doctorate for physical therapy and the salary range just doesn't match up to what they're paying for school. So, compared to a doctor in MD, it takes a lot longer to recoup the costs of that education depending on where you go to school. I've seen that a lot. Certain fields don't pay back.
Lizzy: Yeah, absolutely. Well, it also depends on why are you doing it, which I think that's at the root of it. So, you can do it because it's an investment in your long-term earning power or in your career it, may be a requirement to do a certain job or get to a certain level. You can do it because you want to learn or because you want to prove to yourself that you can.
So, my ex, while we were together, got his doctorate. And I think for him, it was like to see if I can. And he's probably not going to make more money because of it or incrementally more, it's an education. It's not a high paying field. But there is value in that of just the achievement and like the Everest, like why not? Because I can.
Lissa: I used to struggle with that because for a long time I associated more degrees with the whole point is so that you can earn more and make more. Even though there is an element of status and pride, there's other things you get along with a degree, but I used to primarily associate it with more money.
Then I think throughout my adulthood, I started to see those other sides. I've actually worked with some clients who are in their 30s, 40s wanting to go back to school and I don't say, "No, don't do that." But I really dig into people about why do you want to go? Because this is a big life shift. It's going to affect your time and energy as well as your earning potential both directions.
Lizzy: Yeah. Sure.
Lissa: And while you're in school, you might not be able to earn as much. And then afterwards, maybe you can make more, but it's not promised. So, there was one client that I talked to and she was like, "I just want to go." And it was that. It was to prove that she could do it, and I think a big part of it was to prove to her parents that she could do it. And I'm like, "That's where I'm like-"
Lizzy: Which is loaded, right?
Lissa: It's very loaded, because I feel I'm like, that's cool and all, but I also have this philosophical, I don't know, thought as an adult now, I was like, "At what point are you not living for your parents..."
Lizzy: For yourself.
Lissa: "... and you're living for yourself?"
Lizzy: It's challenging.
Lissa: You're going to take on so much debt to make somebody else proud of you.
Lizzy: Right. When they're probably already proud of you. Yeah. Right. Well, and one other thing I want to mention, this is just an interesting reason, with my ex, it was there less than 1% of African Americans have a doctorate. And so, there was also this representation angle of being in those rooms contributing to this education and the research and being that voice and showing other people that they could do it because that's what got him down the path. Seeing a Black woman with doctorate inspired him. So, that's meaningful too. Even if it has nothing to do with your salary.
Lissa: Yeah, which is crazy, because then you're taking on the burden of the financial cost.
Lizzy: Yeah. Exactly. And who says you have to do that or want to do it? Okay. So, let's detail out the costs. We've got the cost of tuition, which can be extensive, up to hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Lissa: Mental health costs.
Lizzy: Mental health costs. Let's dig into it.
Lissa: Well, I think there's a difference too. Both of us went to grad school relatively soon after our bachelor's. So, we hadn't even experienced real adulthood real life yet at least-
Lizzy: We hadn't been burnt out yet-
Lissa: Not yet.
Lizzy: ... by life.
Lissa: But there are folks who go back to school later. And I think it's a mixed bag. I think for some people, they have a financial cushion. They've lived some life. They're doing it because they have the energy and the time to. I think other people do it out of desperation of trying to switch career fields or to try to make more money and do it when they don't have a financial backing.
So, now, you're going back to school with stress. You're stressing yourself out with having to study and use your mental capacity to the max while also having to think about your everyday life, especially if you have a family or kids to support.
Lizzy: Yeah. And there is a distinction somewhat of are you doing a full-time graduate program, where you're not able to work? For example, med school or a lot of nursing schools, you can't have a job. And so then, how are you going to live? And that's an additional financial cost. And are there loans that can cover that? Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. That is a stressor.
And then you're putting your earning power, that feeling of moving forward in life on hold. People around you have started their careers. They may be making money, you are still building. So, that is a financial and mental health cost. But then there's also, if not you're working full-time or part-time or full-time and doing this on top of that, which is a drain.
Lissa: Yeah. So, the potential for burnout, mental and physical burnout, major risk and cost to doing post-graduate degrees in your adulthood.
Lizzy: Seriously, seriously. And sacrifice. You're not going to have the same time, free time and time with friends. Depending on when you do it in your life, you may feel like you're missing out. My friend I mentioned that's a doctor, she was in school for 16 years. She had four kids in that process.
Lissa: Oh, my god.
Lizzy: You're not going to have the same parental experience with those kids when you are in med school or in a residency and becoming a doctor. It's a sacrifice for their future, but that is a sacrifice.
Lissa: Yeah. Of your present.
Lizzy: Or even just us. I moved away for two years in my very early 20s and missed out on a lot and had this weird time of being isolated and not really having friends and missing some prime years.
Lissa: Yeah. Well, I would say that back on the financial cost, but as it relates to the mental health cost, because I took on so much debt with student loans and I started my career making pennies, I had stress every day, pressure. Like do I got to move back home? What if I can't hack it in Los Angeles? I can't sustain this for long. All right. I got to eat ramen noodles. I got to be cheap with my lifestyle. There was a lot of things that I was just the stress of not knowing if you're going to make it or not.
Lizzy: Yeah. Well, that's a really great point because it doesn't end. The financial stress doesn't end when you get the degree. If anything, it only begins.
Lissa: Yeah. Adds more.
Lizzy: I remember one of our close friends went to a private school for counseling and just offhand one day, she's your age, I think a couple years older than me, mentioned that when she graduated, her student loans were like $900 a month or something. And at the time, we were still pretty young. I was like, "Oh, my god, how do you do that?" And that is pressure.
Lissa: That's how mine ballooned into 900 a month. It was like, I know one of my payments was 725. It's like it etched into my brain. And then there was another payment that I was making too. And I'm like, that's my whole paycheck.
Lizzy: Yeah. Seriously. And then it just accrues interest. I have someone in my life that's like, I will never pay off my student loans. They're like, "It's just never going to happen. It'll exist for my entire life. I'll die with them." That's just their attitude on it. They're like, "It's never going to happen." That is an overwhelming burden, that feeling of you're suffocating from it. You can't get out from under.
Lissa: Yeah. I got a dumb question. So, tuition costs so much, undergrad, graduate, what is this money being used for? To pay professors and stuff? Obviously, campuses, what is it paying for?
Lizzy: I think it's a lot of things. I don't really know. But I think certainly professors and cost of facilities, the whole administration. Depending on the school, it's a big living, breathing organization.
Lissa: Yeah. I get when it funds research universities that are doing science. I just it racked my brain. What is it being used for? The plaques on the wall that you see when you walk through a hallway, because that's what annoys me. Because I don't know if you think this has changed. Do you think that post-graduate degrees are going to continue to be a differentiator for people in the workforce?
Lizzy: This is just a perception. I have two directions with it. From everything I've heard over the past several years, especially post-pandemic, a bachelor's degree is considered table stakes. It's like duh, everyone has one. And it's been really hard to get a job. And so, I think a lot of people are feeling like they need a post-graduate degree to differentiate themselves or because they just can't get work. And so, they need to do something.
That said, there's also this other shift of entrepreneurship, like I said, the skills I learned, you can learn online. And especially in technology, you don't necessarily need a formal education. The way AI is changing the workforce is going to be interesting. So, I think it depends what field you go into, but there's a little bit of both. What do you think?
Lissa: I feel the same. Your master's, you learned some actual tangible skills and I don't feel like I got that out of my master's program, but I feel like tangible skills are the things you can go to trade school for or take online courses for, but you just don't have the degree.
Lizzy: That's value.
Lissa: But if you can design stuff, if you can write stuff, if you have skills, all you got to do is show those skills and you can get hired. So, do you actually need the degree in those scenarios?
Lizzy: It's interesting. I think that's a great point. And that was one of the big differences between undergraduate, which at UCLA is very theoretical, which I value. That taught me how to think. But this was very practical. Sit on a computer, how do you use Illustrator? That's probably a high cost to pay for those skills. And I do want to say I learned more from working with a very good designer and just watching her and learning how she did things than I did in this program.
I'll also say having hired dozens of designers now, and most of the ones who were more formally educated didn't have that foundational knowledge. Not that I got here, that I got from that other designer. Very specific things if you know design of using a grid and making things pixel perp. Things that I feel like are, it's like counting. It's like a multiplication tables.
Lissa: Yeah. But that's why you have that skill. So, all you need is a portfolio or a chance to show you can do it and then you can get a job.
Lizzy: Yeah. I mean, I'll tell people all the time to do my job, even now, you don't even need a bachelor's degree, but you need to know how to think and you have to have a lot of skills and acquire them.
Lissa: You need an entry point.
Lizzy: You need an entry point.
Lissa: You need someone to help get you in the door.
Lizzy: Yeah. So, honestly, it's hard for me to say that having a master's degree has helped my career, the badge value of having it because I was already in a job when I got it. And I stayed there for five more years. I got one more job after that and I'm sure it helps, but I think I could have gotten that job anyway. And then I've been in entrepreneurial situations ever since where it didn't matter. So, probably not, other than what I learned.
Lissa: Yeah. So, would you ever go back to get another post-graduate degree? I know you are working on a certification. We talked about that, but post-grad degree.
Lizzy: Yeah. I've thought about it because I actually love school. I really love to learn and I value it. I think there's something cool about the badge value of it, and I have a lot of respect for it. There's actually just nothing that really makes sense for me other than being academic. So, in media, in technology, in design, you can get a doctorate, I guess, but it would be more in the study of communication-
Lissa: To do research.
Lizzy: ... to do research and maybe in finance. But yeah, I don't know. If anything now, I do wish I had an MBA. That's where I've learned so much about business by being in business and picking up the pieces. And I've taken online classes, but there are certain things, even stupid things like an acronym or a way of approaching a problem that are so foundational in business school that I've had to play catch-up on, or I'm learning from people that are 20 years later in their career and I'm Googling stuff. So, I do think from an educational standpoint and a networking standpoint, an MBA would've been very valuable for me.
Lissa: At one point, I applied for a PhD program. Did I ever tell you that?
Lizzy: No. You never told me that.
Lissa: I got rejected.
Lizzy: Where and what was it?
Lissa: USC. I don't know. Communications. So, I was just following the path. I was like, all right, I got the master's. This was sometime while I was already working at Google. And they have great reimbursement programs, where even if it's not related to your job, you can get some reimbursed a little bit, like for personal development. I applied thinking just to explore the route of doing a PhD, which would be more in research, research and entertainment media and communications. And I got rejected and I got so hurt by it because I was like, dang, I've gotten accepted to all these other things that I've done throughout my education and career.
Lizzy: Yeah. I get that.
Lissa: But in hindsight, I'm so glad I got rejected because it led me a different path and I don't think I would've wanted to take on more loans just to call myself a doctor, which is funny, to be a doctor, but not be a doctor.
Lizzy: Right. You know what? That made me think of though. Something that I do value, I've realized, being an expert in something. So, I am clearly a jack of all trades. I have a broad range of skills, and I'm very good at a lot of things, but I'm not a specialist or an expert in something. And there's value to me in being a thought leader, whether it's whatever kind of doctor or that terminal degree where you have a specialty and you are the voice in the room on this subject. I think that's cool. That's really cool. And that's usually associated with research-oriented programs, but that's really just like a appeals to me. I think it's cool.
Lissa: Yeah. Do you remember when I got my CFP certification not too long ago? I told you that the units that I got, because I had to take seven classes, six or seven classes, grad level classes, and they count towards a master's in finance. I still have to take a few more classes, but I'm already more than halfway there. And so, we were talking about should I just get the master's? So, when I looked up the cost, I don't remember the cost. It's definitely at least 10,000 more dollars, something like that. I was like, okay, I'm going to put that to the side for now because why? Why would I do that? Do you think I should?
Lizzy: Because it's cool. I don't know. I value education inherently. I don't know why. I just think it's cool.
Lissa: Yeah. To have a second master's, now you just have degrees on degrees on degrees.
Lizzy: I have a funny example of this. So, I mentioned I was the first in my family to get a master's, then my mom got hers. My sister raised three kids and then went back to school later. And so, she got her bachelor's. I'm going to mess this up, but I think she double majored in linguistics and Spanish, and then did a dual master's program that I think was also in linguistics and ESL, English as a second language education, something like that. The idea was to teach.
Then I think she had a hard time. She wanted to do a doctorate. That was her long-term plan. She didn't get accepted. And so, she found this other master's program. That was a one year accelerated that was very, very targeted, so she got a, if I'm not messing this up a third master's degree, and then ended up teaching and now she teaches high school. She teaches a lot of second language learners.
It's been really interesting to see her comfort with education and then the challenge she felt transitioning into the application of that and not like a judgment, but I think some people are very comfortable with school. I'm very comfortable with school. It has parameters. I know how to win at it. Real life or career work, entrepreneurship, a lot, you don't just get a grade. You have to forge that path for yourself. So, I think that can be really challenging, and I think that's one of the reasons I fled back to that comfort of school structure.
Lissa: Structure.
Lizzy: Structure. Yeah. But it's important to note that you could have all the degrees in the world, it's not the same as the real-world application.
Lissa: Agree, agree.
Lizzy: And I think I took that for granted. When I was younger and like, "Oh, I know a lot about this and I have enough experience." The doing it is the best education in my opinion.
Lissa: Yeah. I mean similar to you. Now that I have my own businesses and I learned a lot in business, working in tech, working on the business side of things, I also wish that I had gotten my MBA. I still could in the future.
Lizzy: Sure.
Lissa: It's more like what value would that add to me compared to the cost? Like what's the ROI? But yeah, I think that would've been a more focused degree that would've had real-world applications compared to the master's that I did get. I learned some cool stuff and it was fun. But do I use that stuff in my particular case? No, I don't.
Lizzy: Yeah. One thing I do want to point out about MBA as we alluded to it, depends on the program, but generally the networking and job placement from an MBA program is incredible, especially if you're in a ranked program. That is one area where the badge value is actually meaningful, I would say. And translates like, "Oh, you have an MBA from Chicago or University of Chicago like Booth, you will have a good career." And because of the network, because of how they match you, because it is valued.
So, I would say typically those things pay off if you're going through a structured path of working up a corporate ladder, or potentially, if you're going the entrepreneurship route, but need connections, maybe a VC route. Similarly to you, I think an MBA would be fascinating right now. I would probably learn a lot, but not anything I'm not going to learn from experience or not enough to justify the cost. Right now, I'm a co-founder, I don't need it.
Lissa: So, for someone watching this who has always been thinking about going back to school, they have a bachelor's and they're like, "I want to go back to school, get a master's, get a doctorate, change careers," what should they think through? What should they consider?
Lizzy: To me, the very first foundational thing is why are you doing it? And we've discussed that can be, I think this will further my career or my earning power. And sometimes that's very, very black and white that it will. Sometimes you're taking a risk that it will. Do you want to learn? Do you need a change? I don't want to discount the fact that like you said, your path takes you where it takes you. So, maybe you doing your master's didn't yield any direct translation to what you're doing now, but who's to say it didn't shape your path or provide some experience that got you where you are?
So, the friend I mentioned got a counseling degree. She hasn't used that. She shifted her career completely again, but it's part of her journey and maybe she wouldn't have ever gotten there. So, there's value in that of just paying for experience. And then the badge value, the proving it to yourself.
So, okay, why are you doing it? How are you going to approach it practically? What will it cost? What can you afford? Being very realistic about your resources in terms of financial, time, support in your life, how will you make this work? Are you willing to sacrifice that and commit to it? And then maybe the practical of the actual applications and what it requires. What do you think?
Lissa: Yeah. I'm pretty much aligned, the why are you doing it? Dig into that, not just surface level, but dig in deep. Go to your therapist and talk about it before you make this big life decision. But also, on the practical side, something that I've come across with clients is it feels all vague and fuzzy what the financial impact is going to be. When you actually can forecast out what your cashflow might look like the next year or two while you're in school. You can forecast where your money's going to come from and what you're going to pay on things because it is all in front of you.
I would suggest doing that before accepting a program, before leaving your job, before doing a major change. Because then, not only will you have a plan, but having that plan will give you peace of mind that you can actually relax and focus on your studies while you're studying.
Lizzy: And a couple points of that that we've alluded to include, talking to your current employer, will they pay for a portion of it? Will they guarantee that your salary will go up if you get this degree and by how much? And then doing research on the job market, otherwise if it's a career shift or is there a higher salary range for positions that require that degree? So, there's a lot you can do upfront to arm yourself and to project those things out. And then sometimes, it's just a pros and cons. What do you think the benefits are? Entrusting your instincts.
Lissa: And you know your field best. We alluded to the fields we are in, and we alluded to some of the professional degrees like law, medical, and business, but you know your field best. Are they hiring more people who have a master's in architecture in other fields? You'll know if it's a differentiator or not in your own field.
Lizzy: Right. And you can also always reach out to people on LinkedIn that have done that-
Lissa: And ask them.
Lizzy: ... and ask them, "Hey, was this worth it? How did it help you? Would you recommend it for someone else?" And that's probably going to be your best source.
Lissa: 100%. 20 cents?
Lizzy: 20 cents.
Lissa: 20 cents is the segment of the show where both Lizzy and myself, Lissa, each get 60 seconds to give our two cents on today's topic, whether it is a net positive or net negative for post-graduate degrees. Where does 20 cents come from?
Lizzy: Because you get the opinion of two dimes.
Lissa: Two dimes. I actually don't know which direction you're going here.
Lizzy: I don't either.
Lissa: So, Liz, 60 seconds on the clock. Are post-graduate degrees worth it for you?
Lizzy: Oh, gosh. This is hard. I feel very neutral. I know I can't give that, but because I wouldn't change my path, but it hasn't been some overwhelming benefit. The degree itself, the education that I forged out of it has been very positive.
I think I will go net positive because I generally believe that you are going to get value out of that experience, even if it is not financial, whether that's in connections, the skills you attain, the world view you get, or just the experience of having gone through something that's challenging. So, I think I will be a net positive.
Lissa: Interesting.
Lizzy: In general, but I'm not about to do it again. All right. What about you?
Lissa: Interestingly, I've been going back and forth and as you said your answer, I'm also leaning net positive. I don't know that my specific degree was worth it for me, but like you said, it probably had an impact on my path without me knowing it. I dislike the financial burden that education in general causes on people. Starting off your adulthood and starting off your career in debt, for most people who decide to get education is silly to me, don't we want a more educated society? There's got to be another way.
So, aside from that, the financial burden that it does put on people, I do think, like you said, you get a lot of value out of it from what you learn, the experiences you take on, and even the people you meet that I do think net positive, it was worth it for me, and I do believe it can be worth it for most people.
Lizzy: Yeah. One note that made me think of, because I don't want to understate the financial burden. If you are going into a field where you don't know that it will pay for it itself or that part is shaky, you don't have to go to a private school. There are a lot of state schools that have really reputable programs that are a fraction of the tuition, even for a graduate degree. It just depends.
If you are going to be a doctor, if you're going to business school, the name value matters significantly or it will pay for itself most likely. But if you're going to be a social worker or whatever, something in the humanities, you don't necessarily have to go that super expensive route.
Lissa: I'm glad you pointed that out because I feel like undergrad for some people, the name of the school matters more. When it comes to a post-graduate degree, I think the name actually does matter less, unless you're in a specific field, but it matters less. But regardless, you have a master's from an accredited university.
Lizzy: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, just small note there.
Lissa: Yeah. Well, remember, this is what we think at this moment in time. Both of us feel net positive for post-graduate degrees. That actually surprised me.
Lizzy: I know. Loosely but positive.
Lissa: But remember, no one can make the decision but you. What do you think? Are post-graduate degrees worth it?
Lizzy: Hit us up. Let us know what you think. DM us on Instagram @netnetpodcast or email us at hi@netnetpodcast.com. And if you want to follow us individually, here's where you can find us.
Lissa: I'm @WealthforWomenofColor on TikTok, YouTube, and Instagram.
Lizzy: And I'm @live_well_Lizzy on Instagram and TikTok.
Lissa: All references, statistics and resources mentioned can be found in our show notes. This podcast is for educational, informational, and entertainment purposes only, and should not be constituted as financial advice. Remember to always do your own research, consult a professional as needed, and feel empowered to make your own damn decisions.