Lizzy and Lissa break down the hidden costs – financial and otherwise – of alcohol and drinking. We all know that a good drink can mean a great time for some people, but there are a number of costs that go along with alcohol consumption. After weighing the pros and cons, is drinking worth it? If you or anyone you know struggles with alcohol usage or substance abuse, you can call the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration's Helpline at 1-800-662-HELP. Additional resources can be found in our show notes.
Lizzy and Lissa break down the hidden costs – financial and otherwise – of alcohol and drinking. We all know that a good drink can mean a great time for some people, but there are a number of costs that go along with alcohol consumption. A fter weighing the pros and cons, is drinking worth it?
Main Topics
00:00 Introduction
02:09 Running The Numbers Segment
04:36 Our Own Stories and Experiences
15:34 What It Costs To Drink
20:55 Is The Industry Predatory?
24:52 Alcohol and Its Impact on Culture
25:41 The Legal and Financial Costs of Alcohol
28:04 The Social Costs of Drinking vs Not
44:45 20 Cents Segment
Resources
Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration's Helpline - 1-800-662-HELP
https://www.aa.org/
https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohols-effects-health/niaaa-middle-school/helpful-resources
References for Statistics
Lizzy: Shots shots shots shots shots shots shots shots. We did it twice.
Lissa: I thought, yeah, we are talking about drinking and alcohol today. So when we're talking about alcoholic beverages and drinking, we mean beer, wine, liquor, spirits, all distilled and un-distilled beverages, and just the whole industry in general. Is drinking alcohol worth it?
Lizzy: Let's talk about it.
Lissa: Welcome to Net Net with Lizzy and Lissa, where we analyze hidden costs and empower you to make your own damn decisions in life. Each episode covers a different facet of life, and at the end of each episode, we give our takes on whether we think something is net positive or net negative.
Lizzy: I'm Lizzy, a strategist and consultant with over 17 years of experience in finance and investing.
Lissa: And I'm Lissa, a personal finance expert and accredited financial counselor. We're best friends who talk about money-
Lizzy: And everything else.
Lissa: So today we are going to talk about drinking alcohol, which is not considered a controlled substance here in the United States, but it is something that is regulated, meaning that there are laws controlling its usage. So before we get into today's episode, we want to be clear that alcohol consumption can have serious health and legal consequences. We strongly encourage you to consult with a healthcare provider or a legal professional regarding any questions or concerns you might have about alcohol use.
Lizzy: Additionally, if you or someone you know is struggling with alcohol use, please seek help from a qualified professional. There are many resources available to provide support and guidance, and we'll include links in our resources in our show notes.
Lissa: So all that said, let's talk about it. The ups, the downs, the highs, the lows. Is drinking alcohol worth it?
Lizzy: All right, well first up; running the numbers on drinking alcohol.
Lissa: According to Statista Revenue, drinking alcohol at home, the market amounts to 184 billion in the United States in 2024.
Lizzy: Sheesh.
Lissa: Out of home, that is 121 billion in 2024. So when you combine in-home and out-of-home alcohol usage, that is $305 billion in 2024.
Lizzy: That's interesting because in-home actually is a larger market, but it's cheaper. So it's pretty interesting, right?
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: So that just shows you how much more alcohol is-
Lissa: Is being consumed.
Lizzy: ... being consumed at home.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: Right?
Lissa: Yep.
Lizzy: All right. So according the 2022 national survey on drug use and health, 221.3 million people, ages 12 and older, so 78.5% of this age group, reported that they drank alcohol at some point in their lifetime.
Lissa: 12 and older.
Lizzy: So almost 80% of the not even adult population, of the population.
Lissa: Teenage and older. And let's remember-
Lizzy: Insane.
Lissa: Let's remember, it's not legal-
Lizzy: It's not legal.
Lissa: ... at that age.
Lizzy: It's definitely frowned upon.
Lissa: Man. According to the same 2022 survey, 172.7 million adults, ages 18 and older, so 18 and older, 67.4% in this age group reported that they drank in the past year. So it's not just once in your life-
Lizzy: Okay.
Lissa: Drinking in the past year.
Lizzy: So two thirds of adults drink-
Lissa: Right.
Lizzy: ... essentially.
Lissa: Because for reference, there are about 330 million people in the United States reported.
Lizzy: That's crazy. That's really crazy.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: All right. And then thinking about the effects of this, SleepFoundation.org says that moderate amounts of alcohol, which is defined as two drinks for men, and just one drink for women, can decrease your sleep quality by 24%. 24%.
Lissa: Yeah. I think it decreases my sleep quality by 99% percent.
Lizzy: 90%. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Way more than that.
Lissa: Still.
Lizzy: And that's just one drink.
Lissa: Yeah, that's one drink for us.
Lizzy: But we all know there's more to life than numbers. So let's talk about it. Is alcohol worth it?
Lissa: Aye, aye, aye. Where do we start?
Lizzy: Man, we start with the fact that I was at Lissa's house last night. Story time.
Speaker 3: It's story time.
Lizzy: I was at Lissa's house last night and I had maybe one third of a canned margarita drink, maybe one third because I didn't care for it. I don't drink that much, and I'm already feeling the effects today. I definitely felt nauseous this morning when I woke up. And it was not worth it, you all.
Lissa: So one third of a can-
Lizzy: One third of a can.
Lissa: And at what percent do you think it affected your sleep?
Lizzy: Oh, well, I've got a new puppy, so it's hard to know.
Lissa: It's different practice.
Lizzy: But I definitely felt it. I had a headache when I woke up. I felt a little nauseous, a little hungover from a fraction of a drink.
Lissa: Yeah. That is why even though I was hosting some friends over, we had a little game night and watched the Olympics. I didn't drink.
Lizzy: Because you're smart. You're smart.
Lissa: Yeah. I hosted, but I didn't have a sip because it just has that effect that I didn't want to feel any negative thing today, at least not as a result of drinking.
Lizzy: See? And I should have known.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: But that would not have been the case for you a few years ago probably.
Lissa: Right.
Lizzy: So talk to me-
Lissa: Oh my gosh.
Lizzy: What's been your journey with alcohol?
Lissa: Yeah. I historically am known by friends and family to drink. Not-
Lizzy: Not like-
Lissa: Not crazy.
Lizzy: ... drink.
Lissa: But yeah, I don't abuse alcohol.
Lizzy: You enjoy.
Lissa: But I enjoy. If I'm at a party, I'll drink. If we're chilling at someone's house, I'll mix some cocktails. So I've been drinking since age 21 because the legal age of drinking.
Lizzy: Sure you have.
Lissa: All right. We're not going to get into fake IDs and all that stuff. So let's say I started drinking, I actually really started drinking in college, which is when a lot of people start drinking. And after college, so through college afterwards, into my 20s, into my early 30s, I've always been someone who drank at functions, at parties, both house parties-
Lizzy: Socially, regularly
Lissa: ... regularly going out to bars, having Sunday Funday when it's NFL season. There's so many different aspects and areas in life. And I do attribute some of that to, not my upbringing, but my family and culture. Drinking is a thing in Filipino culture and in my family specifically-
Lizzy: You all get down.
Lissa: ... at parties. So I missed a family party because where I grew up it's about a five-hour drive from Los Angeles, which is where I'm at right now. And about a couple weeks ago, my cousin, my little cousin turned 21, so she had her 21st birthday. They had a family party. I missed it. I was just like, yes, I have to pick and choose when I can make the trip.
Lizzy: Sure, of course.
Lissa: And then I saw pictures and videos. They were doing keg stands. They were like, "Welcome to age 21."
Lizzy: Damn.
Lissa: This is at my aunt's house. So it was a thing. So if you take that into consideration, my mom actually doesn't drink, but it is a thing.
Lizzy: It was normalized for you-
Lissa: It was normalized. It was normalized as a thing.
Lizzy: ... and celebrated or associated with celebration and good times.
Lissa: Yeah. So as such for this episode, we're talking about drinking. I have a lifetime full of stories.
Lizzy: So I'm curious, when you did start to drink, was it just a foregone conclusion that it was always going to happen eventually? Was it something you actively considered not doing?
Lissa: No. And actually the first time I got drunk was a terrible experience. A friend got drunk with me. This was in college, and we both didn't know what it felt like to really be drunk. She thought she was fine, and I think she was definitely more fine than me. She actually went to go get my car. We were at a frat party and she went to go get my car from around the corner to bring it and pull it up out front, but instead hit a car and hit a tree. And that was my first foray into drinking.
Lizzy: Oh my God.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: How did I not know that?
Lissa: Yeah, I guess I'll tell you the full story later-
Lizzy: Damn.
Lissa: ... after this episode. So that made me scared, but it also scared me straight a little. I still ended up drinking in college, but I was not-
Lizzy: There's nothing to play with.
Lissa: ... not fucking around with driving or anything that would get me legally in trouble or hurt or die, right?
Lizzy: Sure, of course.
Lissa: I always took it seriously in that way. Friends that I've partied with in the past might think differently, but no, I swear I was always conscious of being careful.
Lizzy: Yeah.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: I don't have any evidence that-
Lissa: Yeah, that's how I started. I'd like you to share your story because Liz was our DD-
Lizzy: Forever.
Lissa: ... our designated driver for a very, very, very long time when she didn't drink.
Lizzy: Yeah. So I was raised Mormon until I was 10 years old. So I grew up in an environment where alcohol did not exist. Coffee didn't exist, it just was not a thing. And therefore there was no emphasis placed on it. Fun had nothing to do with consuming substances. And so as I got older, even being removed from that environment, my parents didn't drink at the time, so it just wasn't a thing. And there also is a lot of alcoholism in my family, and so maybe that's a contributing factor. So I just had no interest in it. I really didn't. And some of that was for sure my ingrained good girl perfectionism, follow the rules complex. Some of it was like, why would I do this if it is damaging to your body? And a fear of losing control, I think, if I'm being honest. But it just never appealed to me, so I didn't do it at all. Every once in a while I'd have a sip of someone's drink just to taste it. I've tried alcohol for the first time with Lissa.
Lissa: Oh yeah. That was my 21st.
Lizzy: Your 21st. Your 21st. And we had just become friends.
Lissa: Liz was younger than me.
Lizzy: I didn't drink. I had a-
Lissa: Yeah, you had a tiny sip.
Lizzy: ... tiny little fake shot for reasons we're not going into. But yeah, I really didn't drink alcohol at all. And over the years it became part of my identity, to be honest, in a weird way that maybe wasn't healthy of like, "Oh, well this makes me different." Because if you tell someone you don't drink, they'll be like, "Oh my gosh, that's so amazing. Don't ever start." Like, "Oh, I can't believe it. You really don't drink?" And so eventually I became afraid to lose that, I think. And somewhat in my family, this may be a reveal for some of my family members that I actually do drink from time to time and a little afraid of what they think.
Lissa: She's very responsible. She only had a third of a can last night.
Lizzy: Seriously. And then it wasn't until I was 32 that I actually started to drink here and there. And at the time, I think it was around COVID and I loved to cook. I was really into making cocktails for my partner. At the time we were cohabitating. And I just liked experimenting and I never disliked the taste of alcohol. I actually like bitter things. So I liked it. And so that's when I started to be like, hmm, maybe it's okay for me to explore this because I actually like the creative part of it and the taste. I still to this day don't like the feeling. And I also have a sensitivity where it almost instantly triggers a migraine for me. Sometimes literally instantly. So it's a challenge.
Lissa: I love that you mentioned that, the part of it being part of your identity. Because I remember when we were in our 20s and stuff, people would ask, they would ask me, "Why doesn't Liz drink?" And I never really fully had an answer. I would have to think, is it because she's religious? I don't think so.
Lizzy: No.
Lissa: Is it because she's like a health nut? I don't think so. And then when we would ask Liz, she would just be like, "I just don't," right? She didn't feel like a need to have to explain it. She had her own reason. And I think that's very empowering to be able to do that. Back in the day, we'd be trying to peer pressure you, but-
Lizzy: For sure.
Lissa: But in order to withstand peer pressure, you have to have that empowerment to say, "No, I am good. I know my reasons of doing it or not doing it."
Lizzy: Yeah, for sure. And I think I am happy with the fact that I am okay with letting that go too. And knowing it doesn't change anything about me. And I don't regret it either way. I'm kind of glad I didn't have those experiences because I enjoyed my 20s in a whole different way. I got to be the DD and witness-
Lissa: You had to be the sober one-
Lizzy: Oh my God-
Lissa: ... watching us act a fool-
Lizzy: ... the shenanigans. And honestly to be there to keep my friends safe, which was also a good thing.
Lissa: Very great, very great. So I also was thinking about how early on in my 20s I actually took bartending classes.
Lizzy: Oh yeah, I remember that.
Lissa: Yeah. And so I've always appreciated the art. Like you said, you liked creating cocktails to pair with dinner and stuff like that. And the taste actually can taste good the way you mix it. So I took bartending, but that was purely as like a, oh, this is something that's kind of cool and interesting and a nice party trick, but also I can maybe make some money off of it. I turned out not becoming a bartender, I bartended a few parties, but I ended up getting a part-time job at a law firm at that time. So I was like, eh, I never took it a step further. But I've always gone back to trying to keep my knowledge of mixing. And interestingly, during the pandemic, I had two roommates, my cousin and the other homie, and I had a bar menu every day, "All right, starting at four o'clock, let me know, text me your orders." And it was like a thing, it was a social thing to keep us sane during that time.
Lizzy: And I think that was pretty common during that time. People were trying to cope. And knowing you how I know you, that makes sense because you're so much about hospitality and making other people have a good time and you're very creative. So it just makes sense to me that that would be something you would enjoy doing. Making something for people that brings everyone together.
Lissa: Yeah. Oh man.
Lizzy: All right. Now the cost of this stuff.
Lissa: Just a lot of costs.
Lizzy: So first of all, let's talk about the financial costs.
Lissa: Oh yeah. Well, we talked about how big of an industry it is in home and out of home. So a lot of people are doing it. That money comes from somewhere. It's out of our pockets as consumers.
Lizzy: Oh, absolutely.
Lissa: So these costs are crazy.
Lizzy: For someone that drinks regularly in home or out of home, I am not going to say that my friend group or people I know are typical, but several people I know go out on a regular basis or even drink on a regular basis at home. That's hundreds of dollars a month potentially at least. One night out if you have a few cocktails is a hundred bucks in LA.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: It's gone crazy here.
Lissa: Depends. Yeah, it's gone crazy. I feel like back in my day when I started drinking cocktails, well back then, because we were more broke, we had less money. We would go for the cheaper drinks, the well drinks and beers and things like that, which you could get for five bucks. Yeah. Oh my gosh. The amount of trash, Mad Dog, 2020,
Lizzy: Fuzz Balls.
Lissa: Oh my gosh. The trash alcohol I drank and the cost, the headaches and stuff I have to deal with.
Lizzy: I missed that whole phase, thank God.
Lissa: Yeah, you missed that whole phase of the cheap alcohol.
Lizzy: Yeah. Broke drinking.
Lissa: So yeah, I remember it being around $5, definitely less than 10 to get even a mixed cocktail.
Lizzy: Oh, for sure.
Lissa: Nowadays...
Lizzy: I feel like in West LA at least it's 18, 22. If you go somewhere nice-
Lissa: You go to a nice restaurant or bar or anywhere that has craft cocktails, you're in the 15 to 25 range per drink.
Lizzy: Wild.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: Wild. The inflation. So obviously a high monetary cost.
Lissa: That's what makes it hard to go to dinner, go out on more dates, right? Because the food and then on top of that is the alcohol.
Lizzy: Right. Well, thinking about that, so even just for yourself, if you have one or two cocktails with dinner, that can double your bill, honestly. And then I feel for men who are expected to pay and take women out on dates. A first date, if you're trying to meet somebody and you're going on several first dates in a week or a month, that adds up. That can be a second rent.
Lissa: And usually the reason alcohol, I feel, I don't think everyone on their first date drinks alcohol, but I think it's not uncommon because it helps loosen nerves.
Lizzy: Social lubricant.
Lissa: Social lubricant-
Lizzy: It gets the awkwardness out. It's something to experience, which I think that's one of the things I do appreciate about it. And I've seen that in other people around me of it's a ritual. You were talking about in the pandemic, 4:00 PM happy hour. I think a lot of people use it to divide their workday and their evening relaxation time. I'm going to have a drink. It's of course, physiologically going to loosen me up. But also just the act of having something and that experience and ritual, I think in and of itself, that can be a positive thing.
Lissa: It could be. It could be a negative.
Lizzy: Right. And I know people, I've seen friends and family try to replace that with something that doesn't contain alcohol, but is still keeping that ritual because we need things like that to divide up our time.
Lissa: So financial costs, it costs a lot as us as individuals if we choose to drink, even if you're a light drinker or moderate drinker. The way I think about it is when you go to get your annual physical at your doctor, they'll just want to check the boxes and be like, "Okay, do you smoke? Yes or no?" "No." "Do you drink yes or no?" "Yes." "How many drinks per week?" And I'm like, "I don't know, once every two months?" For me right now, we will get to that, but I've changed my drinking habits in the last year or two. But then it's like, I don't know. So that feels like that's why it's normalized for people to have drinks every week.
Lizzy: Yeah. Well, so I'll say even more extreme than that. So when I go to therapy, which we've talked about, peep the episode on therapy. Every week I have to fill out a questionnaire about my mental health and my progress. And one of the questions is how often do you drink alcohol? And the range is every day. And then it asks you how many drinks you have when you drink. And the max that it asks specifically is four or more. And then it'll specifically say, how often do you have more than four drinks in one sitting? Which is really interesting because I'm thinking, I know a lot of people that have more than four drinks in one setting regularly. So just to put that into context from a health perspective, that's what the medical system is viewing as a lot. And for a lot of people, that's just a Tuesday.
Lissa: Yeah. Well, so I want to dig a little deeper into the industry because I think there's a lot of beauty in, like I said, mixology and things like that. And I've been to distilleries, I've been to wineries, it's like an experience to do some of those things. See the history, see how it came to be a worldwide product.
Lizzy: It's a craft.
Lissa: Yeah, it's a craft. I'm thinking I've went to the Guinness headquarters in Ireland, in Dublin. I've not yet been to the Suntory in Japan, but I've been trying to, the whiskey. And then I just earlier this year went to the most beautiful winery in central California. Just hung out there all day and it's like, that's super, super amazing. That's one side of it. What about the other side where it feels, I don't know if it's predatory or-
Lizzy: Absolutely it's predatory.
Lissa: Okay, I didn't know if I should-
Lizzy: Absolutely. So what I find so interesting about that is that in our country we've decided since prohibition that alcohol is the acceptable drug, whereas others are not. And even more so than smoking, right? There's so much more to my understanding, regulation on smoking advertisements than there are in alcohol. And it is a huge business obviously that is marketed to make you feel included, to make you feel like you're sexier when you drink, you have more friends, you're more fun, you're more interesting. That certain activities revolve around drinking sports activities, all the beer commercials and stuff. So it is absolutely manipulative and predatory to try to get people drinking more and drinking more often and normalize it.
Lissa: So I think about that, how much legal policy and media messages together can make a whole group of people do a thing. That's just kind of-
Lizzy: Fascinating.
Lissa: ... how life works. And so I was taking this certification earlier this year. It's called Trauma of Money. So I'm now a certified practitioner. But one of the assignments we had to do was watch this documentary called The Century of Self. It's free, you can watch it on YouTube if you want. It's a four-hour-long documentary basically on mass media. And it recounts how women never used to smoke. So for the longest time it was a thing that men did. They smoked cigarettes, it was not a woman thing. And then someone in PR felt like, "Hey, that's a whole untapped market. Half of the population is not smoking."
Lizzy: Capitalism.
Lissa: Right. So then they started creating these ads where women, this is gross, but they made women feel like it could be a phallic symbol. It was basically a penis or that's one part of it. But then the other part was it was their, oh, I forget the term for it. It was like their freedom. It'll come back to me. But it was something like lighting it was like them becoming empowered to take over this whole product that was only for men.
Lizzy: They co-opted. Okay, it's not allowed for us. So by doing it, this is a feminist act. This is revolutionary to smoke a cigarette because it's not allowed for you as a woman.
Lissa: And I'm sure it wasn't an overnight thing, but those messages fed time over time normalized it that no, women can also do that. You just see a woman smoking this cigarette and it looks cool. That's going to make more women try it and then get into it. So that's smoking. But similarly with alcohol, it's glamorized, and every corner of every commercial.
Lizzy: It's in movies.
Lissa: In movies.
Lizzy: I think, okay, what does James Bond drink? Drinks a martini. There's just so many iconic things about that. And I think interesting to your point, there's also this intersection of alcohol and sex and how it makes you look more desirable and other people look more desirable and how, like we mentioned, it makes dating easier and certainly for young people, but not just for young people. That's a big desire. So I think it goes hand in hand with that.
Lissa: Because it could be a tool, but it could be a crutch.
Lizzy: For sure.
Lissa: And a lot of times it's a crutch.
Lizzy: Yeah.
Lissa: But back to what you said earlier, because you mentioned smoking and alcohol, but culturally what's more accepted because of laws, like smoking marijuana for example, it's not legal yet federally, but it's legal in some states. But there have been people fighting for it for decades to become legalized because in their minds it's less harmful than alcohol. I don't even think that should be the argument, but it does beg the question of-
Lizzy: Yeah, I probably agree with that, to be honest.
Lissa: Yeah. Of how it affects your actual body. Let's say they were even comparable in their effect. There's no way to quantify this-
Lizzy: In their personal health effect.
Lissa: In personal health effect.
Lizzy: I would argue that marijuana is less dangerous on a societal level in terms of going out and killing someone in your car. Those kind of effects I would argue are lower, which is interesting, but it's still so much more stigmatized.
Lissa: Right. So what makes it that alcohol is a legal thing, and not only that it's legal, but it's yeah.
Lizzy: It is taxed.
Lissa: But you can tax other-
Lizzy: Well, certain things have been historically challenging to tax. That's why weed, because it's a plant, it can grow anywhere. That's one of the barriers to it being legalized is how will the government make money off of this. And it's real. And now that's being figured out and so it's starting to become acceptable. But that's one of the real stories because alcohol is a huge revenue generator for not just businesses which have lobbies and all of those things, but for the country because of the tax on alcohol.
Lissa: So is it one of those things that there's just no going backward?
Lizzy: Yeah, I think so. I definitely think so.
Lissa: Globally, right?
Lizzy: I would imagine there are some countries where it's not-
Lissa: Where it's more strict.
Lizzy: Strict or even not, I feel like I know there are some where it's illegal, but I can't think of them off the top of my head. But yeah, I think there's some variance-
Lissa: Can't walk it back, like alcohol is a thing now, it's part of culture.
Lizzy: Yeah. Which is for better or for worse, man.
Lissa: Yeah, exactly.
Lizzy: And so coming back to the financial cost, one ancillary cost. We talked about buying the alcohol, you also, if you want to be safe and you're drinking outside of your home, you have to pay for Ubers or you have to configure your transportation. There's other factors, other costs that accrue as a result of you drinking alcohol.
Lissa: But that's the thing that it's not just a financial cost because think about someone who has to spend a hundred bucks for a night of drinking and then now you got to weight, do I take that 20, 30, $40 Uber home or just risk it and chance it and save that money? Now it becomes a, you're weighing a decision of safety versus money.
Lizzy: Right. And when you're already intoxicated and your judgment is impaired, are you going to make the smart decision? And often, obviously people don't. The other thing about that, which is just funny and less dangerous is I think you're more inclined to order bullshit food late at night. You might be on a diet, but I'm drunk, so I'm going to go ham and get some pizza or Taco Bell. I know you got a story.
Lissa: Well, oh, I have tons of stories, but there's interesting ones that come to mind that are like, yeah, ordering $200 worth of Taco Bell for seven people at the end of the night because you just get trigger-happy with the Uber Eats.
Lizzy: Yeah, you're having fun.
Lissa: I used to do it, time it when you're on the Uber home and time it so that it delivers right when you get home, then no one has to wait for food.
Lizzy: Yeah. So that is another cost.
Lissa: Yes, there's a lot of costs.
Lizzy: Not to mention just the cost of other bad decisions, which anyone who's drank too much has experienced personally the cost of bad decisions.
Lissa: Is it even worth mentioning those costs in this episode?
Lizzy: I feel like it's a given.
Lissa: It's a given.
Lizzy: Yeah. Wake up in the morning, what did I do?
Lissa: Headache. Not just even the health stuff, but what did I say to who? Who did I text or call or-
Lizzy: Yeah, I am fortunate, I've never had a blackout. I've only been drunk-drunk a couple times, and those were regrettable enough. But yeah, I've never experienced that. That would terrify me for sure.
Lissa: I've never blacked out. So whenever people talk about that, I don't know what it means to, it just means you just forget everything?
Lizzy: You just can't remember. Yeah.
Lissa: That's crazy.
Lizzy: I don't remember, someone I was talking to recently, like, "Oh, I don't remember anything that happened after we left this place."
Lissa: Right. So if you-
Lizzy: That's so scary.
Lissa: If you showed them a video of something while they were doing-
Lizzy: They don't know they were doing it.
Lissa: ... they wouldn't remember that they got up on the table and started dancing.
Lizzy: Yeah, I think that's one of the big deterrents for me because of probably my own control issues of not being aware of what I'm doing. And for some people that's the benefit, being uninhibited and free. And I don't like that. I don't want to make decisions or present myself or behave in a way that I would regret the next day.
Lissa: That's a very fine line between it being fun and free and this crutch you're dependent on because you haven't gotten your emotional life where you want it to be.
Lizzy: Absolutely.
Lissa: Your mental health, your emotional health, you haven't gotten that to a good place, so you turn to this thing.
Lizzy: Or even if you're not maybe necessarily dependent on it in that way, but you just overdo it, right? You're having fun and you overdo it. And we know people that are a fun drunk, an angry drunk, an emotional drunk.
Lissa: Belligerents.
Lizzy: Yeah, belligerent. You go too far. And that's another thing is you're drinking, but you're the one that takes it too far and then you look, everyone else can see you look sloppy or that's a whole other social cost.
Lissa: Yeah, that's a social cost. Yeah-
Lizzy: Absolutely.
Lissa: You look like a fool.
Lizzy: Yeah, look like a fool. And we've all seen that. We've absolutely all seen that.
Lissa: Man. So you mentioned it as a migraine trigger. So my story now is over the last couple of years, two years or so, I've significantly cut back my drinking. And it wasn't like a conscious decision. I just started making it as an individual decision on certain nights out or dinners out. We'll do an episode about this, but I'm obsessed with my fitness tracker. So I have the Oura ring and I have a Fitbit, and a hundred percent of the time when I drink, anytime after 2:00 P.M. which is when I usually would drink, my sleep is affected negatively, the quality is down, I'm tossing and turning more. Even if I'm knocked out-
Lizzy: Your body temperature elevates significantly.
Lissa: My body temperature is higher.
Lizzy: Your quality of sleep is much lower rate, and you don't get as much deep sleep.
Lissa: Yeah. You stay in the light stages of sleep, which are still good for you, but not as restorative as deep sleep or REM sleep. And so I just started making these individual decisions to, "All right, not tonight, I'm not going to," or for example, I play in a basketball league on Sundays now and I am older. I don't want to get hurt. I don't want to be compromised just because my health is lower. So if it's like the night before or day before, I'm not going to have a sip of any alcohol. I'm just going to get the best rest that I can.
Lizzy: Absolutely.
Lissa: Not to mention, this might be another future episode too, but I'm in the middle of fertility related things like IVF, so we're paying so much money for doctors, for my acupuncture, for all these things. I'm like, I don't want to undo everything I'm paying tons of money for-
Lizzy: Counterproductive.
Lissa: So I've just significantly cut back. I don't know if that'll be a thing I do forever, but it's definitely saved me a lot of money. But it's also saved me so much in headaches. I've gotten so much great sleep in the last year or two. I feel more energized overall. I'm sure it's helping long-term. It's not just these-
Lizzy: Absolutely. I guarantee it. Yeah. I'm at the point, so I've only been drinking at all for a few years now, and I just very quickly recognize, like I said, it is an automatic instantaneous headache, often migraine that lasts for days no matter how much I drink. That said, there's absolutely some dopamine response that makes me still want to sometimes. I probably have maybe one drink maybe once or twice a month at this point. Sometimes more, sometimes not really more, sometimes less frequently, I'll say. And I can't think of the last time I didn't regret it. But it's because I like the taste and there's something, and this is probably human nature, but also absolutely an ADHD like dopamine novelty response of like, oh, this fun thing to consume. And then I'll be like, Ah fuck, what am I doing?"
Lissa: Is there a thrill to like, "Okay, I'm going to drink, have fun, have a great night, drink another one, drink another one." And then some people actually don't get hungover.
Lizzy: A lot of people, yeah.
Lissa: And they're just like, "Huh, I've won."
Lizzy: What I wonder is people that don't get hungover, is their normal steady state feeling actually just shittier than that they could really feel-
Lissa: Maybe they're just tired.
Lizzy: They're just tired. Because I get dehydrated really easily and when I'm dehydrated, I feel like shit. I have brain fog. I have a headache. I'm super sluggish. And I wonder if some people are dehydrated all the time and just never know that they could feel infinitely better.
Lissa: Maybe. Yeah.
Lizzy: I'm curious about that.
Lissa: It's very possible. I know that when I... There's so many phases of drinking. There'd be when I was younger in my 20s, I would drink and my body could bounce back quicker. I'd still get the occasional hangover here and there, and I get the occasional where I vomit. It's hilarious because it's those times where you're feeling the worst you could ever be and it's this self-imposed thing you did to yourself. And then I'm like, "I am never ever, ever, ever doing this again." And then two months later it's happened again. How does that happen?
Lizzy: I think that's just the chemical response in your brain. It's like the cycle of how people get addicted to things.
Lissa: Because how fun it was to have that night out-
Lizzy: Short term memory about it.
Lissa: Right? And then I had this phase where I started owning it and not getting hung over because I'd have one glass of water for every drink I had. I'd space them out properly and then I'd take some ibuprofen, I'd drink a Gatorade before I went to bed. If I got up in the middle of the night, I'd also have some more water and then I'd wake up fine. And it's like, "Oh, I've beat the system."
Lizzy: Sure, yeah. Great.
Lissa: I figured it out.
Lizzy: The funny thing for me is because I always feel like shit and I don't like the feeling of maybe one drink I'm okay. More than one, I don't like that feeling. I actually get very little benefit. It's like all the cost financially and health-wise with none of or very little of the fun buzzy feeling because I don't enjoy that.
Lissa: So I think it goes without saying, obviously there's a ton of legal costs.
Lizzy: Absolutely.
Lissa: What are your experiences with yourself or people you know who've had to deal with any of that?
Lizzy: Oh man-
Lissa: Obviously don't name names.
Lizzy: Yeah, sure. I know quite a few people who've gotten DUIs, and not just painting my friend group as some degenerates. It's not true. It's just people and colleagues. It is a pretty universal experience to drink. Man, it is expensive. It is so expensive and obviously you can ruin your life doing it. I know I've seen and known people who've experienced accidents where you kill someone or you seriously injure someone and your whole life is ruined from that. So you can't understate the legal implications of drinking irresponsibly and let alone for yourself. Like I said, I have alcoholism in my family. I know some very good friends who are sober and are in the program and have built a really positive lifestyle around their recovery, which is amazing. But it is a really big challenge that affects every facet of your life.
Lissa: Something I want to touch on, you alluded to it earlier with it being a social thing after work, you get drinks. But I thought about how when I used to work full-time at Google, the parties that we used to have in the tech industry, it wasn't just at Google, if you've ever been to CES, like the conference in Vegas-
Lizzy: Wild.
Lissa: Yeah. Consumer Electronic Show. And that's one conference. I'm sure conferences in all industries-
Lizzy: Finance.
Lissa: ... events, hospitality, all these different industries where there's a big tie to not just drinking but getting wild drunk because that's the culture. How toxic is that?
Lizzy: So I have some interesting thoughts on that because I didn't drink for so long and there's absolutely a social cost to not drinking. And the first time I experienced that was in college I studied abroad in Spain, and in college at UCLA, I had my friends in mostly our friend group. And you guys didn't care and it was, you would jokingly try to get me to, but no one ever really cared. When I went and studied in Spain, I started making friends with this group and they all were there to get fucked up. That was their MO. Obviously I did not. And eventually they just stopped inviting me to things because it made them feel bad about themselves that I wasn't drinking. I didn't ever make comments. I could hang and have fun without it, but it made them uncomfortable. So that was the first time. And then I've worked in finance forever. When I went in-house at a fund company, I really saw how alcohol is a tool in the business for networking, for fundraising. We would hold these huge events at really five-star hotels, luxury and buy out the bar for the whole night. Hundreds of thousands of dollars and everyone would get wild. And I didn't have a drink in my hand. I didn't drink at that time.
Lissa: You didn't even pretend? You didn't have a Coke that-
Lizzy: Sometimes I'd have a-
Lissa: ... a Jack and Coke supposedly-
Lizzy: ... have something, but it definitely made things uncomfortable for people. And it put me in this other category where, okay, we're not going to go grab drinks and network. And honestly, it made networking much harder for me. Because I don't like that kind of thing anyway. I don't like one-on-one small talk. And so it would've been, I'm sure much easier if I was drinking alcohol.
Lissa: Right. That's so interesting that there's a cost to not drinking because you're like an outcast in certain groups, certain groups.
Lizzy: And a lot of people who drink have an inherent, some level of shame about it. That's what I realized is every time I would tell someone I didn't drink, or maybe 90% of the time they would say, "Oh my God, that's so great. Don't ever start."
Lissa: Yeah, and you're better than me, right?
Lizzy: Which is so interesting since so many people do it.
Lissa: Choose to do it anyway.
Lizzy: Yeah. And so then-
Lissa: Like a self-deprecation.
Lizzy: Right? And so I think by not doing it, I unintentionally keyed in on people's judgments about themselves for doing it. And so they didn't want to be around me.
Lissa: It's a compatibility thing. I'm not going to lie, I don't think I ever rejected a first date or someone on a dating app because they said they didn't drink. But I would think about it, what would life be like if I'm bringing them to a family house party and my family's trying to take shots with my potential future husband, right?
Lizzy: Yeah.
Lissa: Of course you can say no. You should say no if you feel empowered to do so. But Compatibility wise, would it match? That's interesting to think about.
Lizzy: I can't act like that wasn't a thing in my last relationship. That wasn't used against me, that I didn't want to drink. We couldn't go get drunk together. And so there was something missing from our experience. And I guess I can't even be mad at that. It's like the feeling of it, of wanting to have those things with your partner and sharing that if it's something that you enjoy. I get it. I don't like that it was used against me, but I can understand that. I had never really looked to date someone who did or didn't drink. It was not a thing for me because I am comfortable around it or not. I think increasingly it is attractive to me when someone doesn't.
Lissa: When someone does not.
Lizzy: Or very infrequently. How do you feel now, obviously you're getting married, but if you were to think about it now, how would you feel?
Lissa: Now, I would prefer the person who drinks less or not at all to the person who drinks more. Because I don't want to deal with some belligerent person or whatever.
Lizzy: That's a whole other thing.
Lissa: But luckily, Alan, my fiance, we have similar views and values around it. He drinks, he'll have a beer a couple times a week at home just to kick up his feet on the couch, and I'm cool with that. And then if occasionally we'll have a big event, we'll have a couple drinks and we're fine. So we're very aligned. I know that changes, that's not going to stay the same forever, because even for me-
Lizzy: Yeah, go through phases.
Lissa: ... it's up and down. So I am grateful that we're on the same page. And it's always going to be something we can talk about versus not just expect the other to align with.
Lizzy: Yeah, it is a big lifestyle factor.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: Yeah, absolutely.
Lissa: 20 Cents.
Lizzy: Let's go.
Lissa: So 20 Cents. 20 Cents is the segment of the show where both Lizzy and myself, Lissa, each get 60 seconds to give our 2 cents on today's topic, whether it's a net positive or a net negative. Why is it 20 Cents and not 2 Cents?
Lizzy: Because you get the opinion of two dimes.
Lissa: The opinion of two dimes.
Lizzy: We're dimes you all.
Lissa: Liz, all right, you got 60 seconds. Is drinking alcohol worth it?
Lizzy: No, I don't think it's worth it. I don't ever think it's worth it. Anytime I do it, I'm like, "Why did I do that? What was I thinking? Why did I make myself feel like shit knowing that this would happen? I didn't especially enjoy it. It didn't make my experience really much better than it would've been without it." So yeah, after 32 years of not drinking at all and three years of drinking sparingly, I absolutely don't think it's worth it. And I'm a total hypocrite because I still do it occasionally. And we'll see if that ever aligns where my knowing it's not worth it is enough to change my decision to consume it here and there. But yeah, I am a net negative on alcohol.
Lissa: Net negative. All right.
Lizzy: All right, what about you, Lissa P?
Lissa: All right, let's start with all the nice fluffy things. Like I said, I went to a week or two week long bartending school, and I think it's a cool skill to have. I have these tools, bartending tools at my home. I actually, at one point during the pandemic had three bar stations because I had this basement with a bar in it. My kitchen had a bar. It was out of control. And I always had the house where people come through-
Lizzy: Always.
Lissa: ... so it was like posting people. So I think that part of it is cool. I love craft cocktails, like the pairing of drinks with meals and things like that. However, due to health reasons, and in the last two years I've changed things, right now at this point in time, I am net negative.
Lizzy: Net negative. Both of us.
Lissa: Like you, I'm still a hypocrite because I'll drink every so often, but I always don't like the decision. So that could change in life, right?
Lizzy: It can absolutely change.
Lissa: Yeah, it can change.
Lizzy: This might be our first double negative.
Lissa: It might be. No, I think there's one other. I have to look back at our episodes. Remember, this is what we think at this moment in time. No one can make that decision but you. We are not endorsing alcohol for anyone, or we're not telling you to stop what you do.
Lizzy: No judgment.
Lissa: That's your decision.
Lizzy: You do you baby. So what do you think? Is alcohol worth it? Hit us up. Let us know. DM us on Instagram @netnetpodcast or email us at hi@netnetpodcast.com, and if you want to follow us individually, here's where you can find us.
Lissa: I am @wealthforwomenofcolor on TikTok, YouTube and Instagram.
Lizzy: And I am @live_well_lizzy on Instagram and TikTok.
Lissa: All references, statistics and resources mentioned can be found in our show notes. This podcast is for educational, informational, and entertainment purposes only, and should not be constituted as financial advice or any other type of advice. Remember to always do your own research, consult a professional as needed, and feel empowered to make your own decisions.
Lizzy: And remember, this is not an endorsement to drink alcohol. In fact, alcohol consumption can have serious health and legal consequences. If you or a loved one suffer from alcohol addiction, please seek help from a professional. We'll provide some resources in our show notes.