Lizzy and Lissa break down the hidden costs – financial and otherwise – of gambling. Is gambling worth it? It might seem like an obvious answer depending on your background, experience, or views on the matter. Yet, this episode gives a refreshing and balanced take on the subjects of gaming and gambling, beyond problem gambling. If you or anyone you know struggles with problem gambling or gambling addiction, you can call the National Problem Gambling Helpline at 1-800-GAMBLER for those of you based in the United States. Additional resources can be found in our show notes.
Lizzy and Lissa break down the hidden costs – financial and otherwise – of gambling. Is gambling worth it? It might seem like an obvious answer depending on your background, experience, or views on the matter. Yet, this episode gives a refreshing and balanced take on the subjects of gaming and gambling, beyond problem gambling.
If you or anyone you know struggles with problem gambling or gambling addiction, you can call the National Problem Gambling Helpline at 1-800-GAMBLER for those of you based in the United States. Additional resources can be found in our show notes.
Main Topics
00:00 Introduction to Gambling Statistics
01:39 Running The Numbers Segment
04:23 Cultural and Emotional Aspects of Gambling
12:11 Social Costs and Personal Reflections
19:38 The Social Side of Gaming
20:53 Stigma and Financial Literacy
22:21 Gambling vs. Investing
27:20 How Gambling is Perceived
35:46 20 Cents Segment
Resources
National Problem Gambling Helpline: 1-800-GAMBLER
https://www.ncpgambling.org/help-treatment/
https://smartrecovery.org/gambling-addiction
https://www.helpguide.org/articles/addictions/gambling-addiction-and-problem-gambling.htm
References for Statistics
https://www.ncpgambling.org/help-treatment/faqs-what-is-problem-gambling/
https://www.ncpgambling.org/help-treatment/faqs-what-is-problem-gambling/
https://www.debt.org/advice/gambling/
https://www.americangaming.org/state-of-play/
Lissa: According to the National Council on Problem Gaming, 85 percent of U. S. adults have gambled at least once in their lives, and 60 percent of people have gambled within the past year. Are you one of those? Because you know I am.
Lizzy: Maybe technically?
Lizzy: Ish? Maybe. Ish. So if you count state run lotteries, then 48 out of 50 states allow some form of gambling.
Lizzy: The two exceptions are Hawaii and Utah. But for context, when we talk about gambling, we're considering casino style gambling, card rooms, bingo, sports betting. And a few other things that kind of lump into that category.
Lissa: This is going to be a fun topic for me. Today we are talking about, is gambling worth it?
Lissa: Let's talk about it.
Lissa: Welcome to Net Net with Lizzy and Lissa, where we analyze hidden costs and empower you to make your own damn decisions in life. Each episode covers a different facet of life, and at the end of each We give our takes on whether we think something is net positive or net negative.
Lizzy: I'm Lizzy, a strategist and consultant with 17 years of experience in finance and investing.
Lissa: And I'm Lissa, an accredited financial counselor and personal finance content creator. We're best friends who talk about money. And everything else.
Lizzy: So first up, running the numbers on gambling.
Lissa: So we already mentioned how many Americans have gambled in their life, upwards of 85%. Now in Dollar Figures, it's estimated that the social cost of problem gaming is $14 billion.
Lissa: Wow. ? Yeah. Yikes.
Lizzy: Man, that's wild. That is a huge number. Uh, okay. So according to debt.org, 23 million Americans land in debt due to gambling with an average loss of around $55,000.
Lissa: That is huge. That must be some people skewing it big time, right?
Lizzy: Right? Yeah. Like some people are really, really into it.
Lissa: Hopefully. Well, here's another interesting stat from debt. org. 15 percent of Americans gamble on a weekly basis, and about 5 million Americans are classified as problem gamblers. And problem gamblers are people who have uncontrollable urges to keep gambling despite the toll that it takes on their lives.
Lizzy: Wow. I'll be honest, this is way more than I thought it would be. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. According to the American Gaming Association, there are 1,011 casinos in the United States.
Lissa: According to the California Lottery website, 95 cents of every dollar spent on the California Lottery goes back to the community through contributions to public schools and colleges, prizes, and retail compensation.
Lissa: Interesting. I would assume other state lotteries are similar. I didn't know that. Yeah. Well, there's a lot going on here when it comes to gambling, so let's talk about it. Is gambling worth it? Do you gamble? Not really.
Lizzy: I'll say, I can't say I've never been like, you want a bet, you know, or, um, honestly I can't even think of examples.
Lizzy: I've never played a game in a casino in my life. I've never placed a bet at a sports book. Mm hmm. Um, I. Don't really engage in it. I probably have at some point like, you know poker game with friends Maybe but I don't even think i've really done that for money. Uh, I don't really gamble here and there i'll be like, you know Lotto's however many and like let's grab a ticket, but I don't think i've ever even bought one myself.
Lizzy: Like if someone hands you like a scratcher, like a 2 scratcher, you'll scratch it. Girl, you've handed me many scratchers. Sure. Lissa gives away scratchers
Lissa: like, Just like a little fun prize.
Lizzy: Yeah, absolutely. I love, I love a scratcher.
Lissa: Yeah. Well, let me clarify just to, before we paint an ugly picture of me, the financial counselor.
Lissa: Um, so gambling, I feel, goes like deep into my roots, like culturally and in my family. Um, gambling is huge in Filipino culture. Not every Filipino family gambles, but in my particular family, we did. Like I remember when I was a child and my grandma used to live with us at one point and so my parents, my grandma, my uncles and aunts would be playing blackjack around the table.
Lissa: And even though. At the beginning, I wasn't part of playing. I was sitting there with them and like learning how, you know, when to hit and when not to hit on blackjack. Like, um, so there was like very deep roots for me. Um, I don't play like the lottery. California State Lottery, Mega Millions, Scratchers by any means on any type of regular basis.
Lissa: Like there could go like five years where I don't buy a thing, but then there could be like, you know, this whole rage of like the, it's like a billion dollar jackpot. Let me just go ahead and like, you can't win if you don't play. So let me buy five dollars. But I like, you know, count that as a loss. But like I, I approach it from that view where like, I know the odds.
Lissa: I'm not, I'm not, you know, depending on this money in any way, shape or form, but I'm gonna do it because why not? Right.
Lizzy: You know what? I just thought of one example for myself. Every year, with the exception of this year, because I just had too much going on, I participate in a March Madness pool.
Lissa: Oh yeah.
Lizzy: That is run by Lissa.
Lissa: Oh yeah, that I run.
Lizzy: That Lissa runs.
Lissa: Yeah, so there's different levels of gambling, right? I, I play fantasy sports. Yeah. And I do these, uh, It's this March Madness pool. My fiancé, Alan, does a really fun World Cup pool, but that's only every four years. I Yeah, you did that. I did that too.
Lissa: That was really fun. Okay, so, so pools, like sports pools. Sports pools. I'll do. Yeah. Right? Because that's, that's still considered gambling, right? You put money in with the hopes of winning some money. Yeah.
Lizzy: It's so interesting, though. This kind of gets into why people gamble. For me, I don't do it for the hope of winning money.
Lizzy: It's the experience of participating in it because it makes it more fun To follow the World Cup or to follow March Madness for me because I have some skin in the game and you know sure it'd be nice to win some money but it's really just like the experience of doing that and I know that's a big thing for you like if you here and there want to go to Vegas, what's your mindset around gambling?
Lissa: Oh yeah, well, so the thrill, right, of the game and this is, this is, For more context, I just love games. Like, it could be video games, it could be candy crush on my phone games, it could be chess, checkers, taboo. If you want to know one thing about Lissa, Lissa loves a game, and she is good at all of them. So it comes down to, for me, there's different types of games.
Lissa: There's games where it's about the competition, and it's also about the strategy. And there's always an element, not always, most games have an element of luck. Um, There are other games that are like zero sum games where like there has to be a winner, there has to be a loser. Mm hmm. And then when it comes to like, let's say casino related gambling games.
Lissa: For me, it's really about the experience and kind of the thrill of the possibility of winning, but I'll never go into it expecting to win. Um, because like that you you're, you're, you're. The odds are against you, right? And that's part of the thrill of it for me too, for when it comes to gambling, like sports betting, things like that, like the odds part of it, like the statistics of it is, it's fun.
Lizzy: Can I cheat the odds?
Lissa: Right. Yeah. But, but even just knowing the odds and probability of things is fun to me.
Lizzy: Sure. Sure. Yeah. That's interesting that you say that because I think there's definitely levels to this. I think a lot of people, um, think of gambling as. Complete chance or, uh, just like a, an energetic thing.
Lizzy: Yeah. I'm just going to throw my money out there and it comes back to me. It comes back to me. And then the other extreme is people who are incredibly strategic and analytical about it. Some even taking like an algorithmic approach and doing it similar to how someone would like day trade stocks. Yeah.
Lissa: Technical analysis,
Lizzy: very, yeah. Technical analysis and approaching it from like a very rigorous, Essentially a motionless standpoint to kind of manipulate the game and try to gain that way. And then there's everything in between. Right.
Lissa: But see, the emotions part is the interesting part because I think that's why, what was the stat on so many people being in a debt problem because of gambling?
Lissa: Yep. Because of the emotions around it and not being able to control those emotions and not understanding what those emotions are and where they come from.
Lizzy: Right. And understanding, you know, to your point, the odds of different games and different kind of strategies within a game. Um, but also like they say for March Madness, for example, uh, if you've ever been in one of those pools, like half the time, the person who wins is someone who just picked based on the mascot, right?
Lizzy: Right. Because you have no control and you don't have, uh, necessarily a sense of the edge or the edge is meaningless.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: In a lot of these situations. Yeah. So, uh, It's an interesting kind of exercise in consumer behavior or in, you know, kind of a gambler behavior of why are you doing this? What are your intentions?
Lizzy: What are your expectations? And I think a lot of people don't go that deep. What I've always kind of admired about you, we've been to, we've been to Vegas together 20 times, is I feel like you really approach it like I set this money aside. For this experience, this is the cost of this fun trip that I'm going to have.
Lizzy: It's entertainment, exactly. This is the price of the entertainment with this, you know, 500 bucks I'm going to go spend or whatever the dollar amount may be. And if you win, cool. If you, if you spend it all, you lose everything. Cool, that was just the price of that fun time you were having.
Lissa: Exactly. But that's, that's what worries me about a lot of people who gamble in general and especially what we define as problem gamblers, like people who gamble to where it's causing significant losses in their lives, not just with money, but relationships and all that stuff.
Lissa: That's what I worry about is I don't think there's not enough of an approach to it in that way, where it's a form of entertainment. Right? Um, I always think about, like I also love going to arcades, like fun arcades, like kids arcades where there's little games, um, where you gotta like stack the little blocks and like hit the button at the right time.
Lissa: Right. And it's funny because a lot of these places, you're paying money to play these games, and then you, if you win them, some of them give you tickets, and then you exchange those tickets for things that, of value, whether it's a piece of candy, a toy, games, or whatever. In a way, like I, well I love these places because they, I think they're fun.
Lissa: I love the competition, the game, the thrill. But on the other end, it kind of like primes me. People to become like gamers or gamblers.
Lizzy: In fact, just, I think last week, Dave and Busters announced that you are now going to be able to bet, actually place bets on gameplay amongst your friends while you're there.
Lizzy: Yeah. How's that? Lee is that? I have no idea, but, uh, I shared that with a few friends. We've we've enjoyed our little pop a shot competition. And that kind of thing. So, the mindset is really critical. So let's break down what are the costs. I mean, it may seem obvious, but what are the costs of gambling?
Lissa: Okay, big, big time cost, money, financial.
Lissa: Right. If I think if you're using money that's not dedicated to gambling, like if that money is getting taken from other things that are necessary in your life that you value in life, right? There has to be a balance. If you value the thrill of gambling. gaming and gambling, then there could be a budget set aside for that as long as it doesn't affect your home life, your lifestyle, your, you know, getting regular haircuts and like, don't let it affect, don't go into debt because that's just going to be this cycle of like, Your life going down.
Lizzy: Right. So for some people…
Lizzy: Let's say this is a hobby Right, and so just like you would dedicate a certain amount of money to a different hobby Whether that's you know sports or art or you know, whatever it may be This is kind of my hobby budget. Yeah, and I can do what with it what I will that's maybe a healthy Take on it that where you're not reaping some of those other costs where it's detrimental to other areas of your life
Lissa: But the problem is like people chase Right?
Lissa: Like, is there like a scientific or behavioral thing going on?
Lizzy: Absolutely. Yeah, it's like a dopamine response. Um, and so, It's a sunk cost fallacy. Sunk cost fallacy. Is the idea that you need to recoup the costs that are already lost. So let's say you've been gambling, you spent, you've lost 500 bucks. Mm hmm.
Lizzy: I'm gonna hit the next time because I need to recoup that, I need to get back up, when the reality is that 500 is already gone. Yeah. And you are going to be throwing more money, throwing good money after bad. Yeah. To try to recoup that and it is a chemical response in our bodies where we have that reward but then also the stress and it's a really complex but like fascinating neurological process that Is kind of the underlying or underpinning of addiction with anything any kind of addiction yeah, like likes on a picture that you post on instagram or A drug or alcohol or you know food anything anything you get this reward and the The critical part of that is the inconsistency of the reward.
Lizzy: If you got the reward consistently, it wouldn't create this chase effect where you're, you know, constantly, all right, what can I do to get it again? Because if you got it consistently, you would just get used to it and, you know, whatever. So what are kind of the lines or what let's talk about some of the social costs of gambling I think this is a really big one because even when we've mentioned this topic to people There's like almost a negative reaction even though the reality is Pretty much everybody participates in gambling in some form or another.
Lissa: Yeah. So it's interesting because, you know, I am in the financial field and I have credibility in the field. Like, I, I help educate, I help people get their finances in order. Right. Do I openly talk about, oh, I gamble, I go, I do this, I do that. Like, not, not really. I'm not gonna hide my authentic self. Like, I'll talk about running my March Madness pool, like, taking trips to Vegas here and there.
Lissa: Like, there's certain things that. But yeah, it's just a part of me and who I am. Sure. But I will say that in the past, especially when I was starting in this field, I would, I definitely didn't want that part of me exposed. Like, I would never do an episode like this on gambling, because how, how is she gonna tell us, like, what to do with our money when, like, she's also gonna, like, make sports bets?
Lissa: Because, so let's dig into that. Why? Why, what is so bad about that? I think it's, I think generally, There is a perception of people, like, who gamble as being addicts and can't control their money and, like, money hungry. Right. Right? There's all these negative things associated with it. And then there's my perception that that is a perception.
Lissa: Got it. Right? Right. And so, like I said, like, in my, to myself, I've always had to justify it. I always felt the need to justify it. Um, if you, I had to actually find out, like, why are Filipinos, like, such big gamblers? And? And, well, something I found on the internet, which I do believe to be true, is that, It's such a big pastime in Filipino culture because there's a means of it being related to honoring the dead.
Lissa: So like when someone you love passes away, the family spends a lot of time together, especially for people who are Catholic. Like there are prayers like every night, you know for however many nights and to instead of just like eating and praying like In order to stay awake and to, like, connect with each other, people play card games and stuff, right?
Lissa: So gambling within the household. And that carry, that obviously has carried over into other, not just during funerals, but like I said, when I was a kid, we would play blackjack in my house. But some of that also translated in other ways. Like, um, my dad and I would watch Jeopardy and Wheel of Fortune. And on like a daily basis, um, when I was in high school, um, my last two years of high school, I was the last kid in the house cause I'm the youngest.
Lissa: And my dad was a little older, so he couldn't do much. Like, he wouldn't even come to like my basketball games and things like that. But seven o'clock, seven thirty, we would watch these shows and he'd be like, All right, 20 if you get, if you answer more things correct than me on Jeopardy, right? If you can get the puzzle on Wheel of Fortune, I'm gonna give you 10.
Lissa: So I've kind of always had this ingrained association with winning something and being competitive and money and, you know, But it's a means of, of familial connection for you. So it's both. It can be both, right? Right. Like, uh, you know, say what you will about my dad or my parents and like, think that I, um, should they be really raising a kid to be like that, but like, say what you will, right?
Lissa: Like I ended up, you know, It was fun. It was successful. Sure. Anyway, and so, to me, there's a very personal connection when it comes to, when we're talking about gambling, like, um, March Madness, like, these are, when I run this, uh, pool, it's like a, for those who aren't familiar, it's a pool. It's like a bracket.
Lissa: Um, you pick who you think is going to win throughout the whole tournament. And then you watch the games on TV together and you're rooting for certain teams to win. Cause if, if one of them loses, it messes up your whole bracket and you have a less chance of winning this pool of money. And
Lizzy: teams you might otherwise have never seen before, or Had a stake in the game.
Lizzy: Yeah, watching the game. Having a stake in the game. It's more fun. Becomes more fun.
Lissa: Way more fun. And so I have all these means of doing these little pools and stuff where it's meant to be fun. It's not meant to make anyone go broke. For sure. And we do it. It's a means of connecting and I love it. Like I've, I would never change that about myself.
Lissa: No way. At least in the foreseeable future. Like, it's fun.
Lizzy: It's really interesting. To hear you say that because, um, you know, you integrate games in some way into a lot of our friend activities, hangouts, you know, like larger parties. You're often the organizer, people come through to your place. It's kind of been, I'll always been the hangout spot and not all the time, but often there's some element of let's have a game night, let's have a poker night, let's kind of do these things.
Lizzy: And it is a really fun way of connecting. Interestingly, that often has nothing to do. It can involve, you know, drinking or whatever, but like it, I think when you say a game night or like, let's play board games, people like, Oh, that's like, that's like so nerdy, right? You don't have to go out and like, try to be cool and try to pick people up and do all this stuff.
Lizzy: You can just hang out with your friends and have a good time. And I've always. I've appreciated that about you. So it's interesting to hear your take on the stigma because I will talk about you. Maybe sometimes I'll be like, Oh, Lissa loves to gamble. And I don't mean anything negative by it. I think it's a fun fact.
Lissa: Someone could take it as like, Oh no, she's bad with money.
Lizzy: And it honestly didn't occur to me.
Lissa: But I'm actually really good with money. Well, you are, right. So good that I'm able to gamble as part of my life.
Lizzy: Exactly.
Lissa: I guess.
Lizzy: Exactly.
Lizzy: I think the stigma is really interesting. Obviously, there, with anything in life, there are extremes where people take it to this, you know, negative, uh, element where it's really detrimental to their life.
Lizzy: But, not all of those things have the same stigma. around casual use. Alcohol, right? Or even, yeah, smoking, doesn't necessarily have this same kind of seedy connotation. Um, and I wonder if that, some of that is because it is directly related to money. And we have all of these social cues that are like, don't talk about money.
Lizzy: And, In this country, it's capitalistic. We are supposed to aspire to wealth, but you're also supposed to like not Talk about that and not be greedy.
Lissa: Yeah,
Lizzy: there's this interesting element. Do you think that plays into those stigmas?
Lissa: Yeah that a hundred percent. Um, I also do think that Even just like financial literacy is a huge thing because like, we could talk about the stock market.
Lissa: We could talk about different financial markets, right? And while many don't consider those things to be gambling because what, because they're based on historical data sets or whatever it might be. Fundamentals of a company. Yeah. Um, it's a different type. It's an investment. And yes, I do think there's a very, there's a, I think there's a clear distinction between investing and gambling.
Lissa: But I also think there are parallels between the two and if you don't teach, you know, people how to invest to build wealth in, I don't know if you want to call it ethical ways, like in ways that are, you know, have a A level of risk that, uh, that they can tolerate, that they are okay with, that they understand.
Lissa: If you don't teach people how to do that, how will they ever build wealth? And then so I do think for a lot of people, especially people in lower income communities, in poverty, they turn to gambling as the only possible solution to make my life at least an ounce better, you know, better than it is now, which is not great.
Lissa: Is it exploitative? It is. It is. It is. It's all of those things. It's exploitative. Like, I don't know. Is, uh, this is impossible. Is there a way to make people have to take a financial course before they can, you know, Like, get into a casino and gamble, right? Like, that's not possible.
Lizzy: But the reality is it's systemic, so would that change anything?
Lizzy: I think it's so interesting, this parallel where, uh, to your point, there's a lot of similarity in terms of behavior and attitude between casual investing and gambling. Like, I'm gonna go randomly stock pick with, uh, No financial context, background, without understanding.
Lissa: Because I got a feeling.
Lizzy: Because I have a feeling, right?
Lizzy: Or I like this one. Or I heard something, right? And maybe the slight nuance is that you own that stock so, you know, the value will fluctuate. So technically you have a security, you have an asset. Um, but in a lot of cases, you're just gambling. Yeah. You're just gambling. Um, but that's not frowned upon in the same way.
Lizzy: Well, Um, and I do think for, there is a really challenging and negative, uh, association with lower income groups. That's complex, right? But this exploitative nature of this is your ticket out of your poverty and feeling like you have no other option that you don't get that same thing if you were to go spend that same money on.
Lizzy: You know, a few shares of whatever stock.
Lissa: Well, where do you, where can you buy lottery tickets, right? Right. Gas stations, corner marts, like liquor stores, like the places
Lizzy: where Right. How many of those do you see in, you know, really high income, wealthy neighborhoods?
Lissa: Yeah, like you gotta go out of your way to find a lottery retailer in a bougie neighborhood.
Lizzy: Right. And I think that's really important to highlight the exploitative nature of that. It's like, it's preying on those emotions, that hope, that desperation.
Lizzy: It's really crazy.
Lissa: And, uh, just to tack on to that, the stat I said earlier about the California lottery, um, majority, you know, 95 cents on a dollar going towards like education or public schools.
Lissa: And I'm sure there's other administrative things in there too. But. Even the fact that that is, like, yes, that's great if that's true, and like, it's a supplement to, you know, taxes and whatnot to help, you know, You know, the public, right? That's great, but in, if, I kind of see it as unethical in a way to use that as a talking point, as a marketing point to, to normalize it, because it's like, alright, I get a lot of benefits from, you know, buying 5 of lottery.
Lissa: I got a chance to win the lottery. Millions of dollars and if I don't at least I've like contributed to my good right right when no you can contribute in other ways Right, you can donate directly and I even have some tax write offs. Like there's there's other means right? It's like it's pairing that Those things together.
Lissa: It's the branding and branding goes a long way. I just hate that like you're right like there's a very different effect on people in different classes, in socio economic statuses. Because, like, cool, if that's, you know, super, super rich people whose lives aren't gonna get derailed if they buy 100 of lottery tickets every week, fine.
Lissa: But it's not. It's people who probably need that money. Right. Otherwise they go further in debt.
Lizzy: The relative value of that money is significantly higher.
Lissa: Yeah. And so that's what's rough. And yeah, it's, it's why you see like even lottery winners, a lot of them end up going broke after because you don't know how to manage it.
Lissa: Right. Nothing's changed with their behaviors. Except that they have more money to do those behaviors with.
Lizzy: Exactly. Exactly. And often you find that they're not any happier. And often they're even more miserable because it's more money, more problems. That's the way it goes. One more thing around the stigma.
Lizzy: Um, so I have a good friend who is, uh, who approaches gambling essentially like a job. At a time, at a certain time, he was basically a full time poker player. Um, for You know, this was like his business. He learned the craft, understood it and supported himself playing poker. And now he is a sharp better, which is where you're, if I'm not going to mess this up, you're getting kind of insight from someone who knows the odds on very, very specific parts of, um, sports betting in this example.
Lizzy: And. Making really strategic plays, um, with the mindset that you're not going to win every time. It's kind of that long term view. Uh, but also ultimately like makes us a substantial amount of his income from this. And he's really transparent with me about it, but not with most people. And I got his permission to share this, this experience on the pod.
Lizzy: Um, But he has a level of, I think, embarrassment or shame, or at least the perception that other people put those things on him. That it's frowned upon, it doesn't look good, even though he's independent, he's really, uh, analytical and thoughtful about it. It's almost like a fear to tell people that reality because of how you'll be judged.
Lizzy: And I think that's, uh, An interesting example of how we associate these things negatively and kind of put everyone in a specific bucket. Even though there's a lot of nuance to this.
Lissa: Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of nuance. Like, I do think that there's, uh, Like that chunk of people, problem gamblers, who need help and like, don't, like, your life is your only life to live, right?
Lissa: Like don't, for playing games, for playing some kind of gambling game, you've now don't have a family, you don't have money, you don't have whatever, you lose everything, right? So for problem gamers, that's one end of the spectrum. And then for, you know. Like, let's say professional poker players, and like this is a form of that, it sounds like to me, right?
Lissa: It's like professional, professional sports betting players, whatever you want to call it. Um, that's the other end of the spectrum where they go into it knowing the risks, which are different from like stock market risks, but there's a set of risks. They know the risks, they know the game as best as they can, they know, um, That money can come or it cannot, like, those are, that's what I see is more aligned with traditional financial world investing.
Lissa: For sure. For sure. Because it's just, it's the same thing. We're taking, we're all taking bets. Like, you could tell everyone to buy index funds and whatever for the long term, but that's still a bet.
Lizzy: Right, and if you're not, uh, if you don't have a big experience in investing, traditionally, On average, higher risk, higher reward.
Lizzy: You are being rewarded for the risk that you're taking. And that can be taken to an extreme. Um, but that is why you are being rewarded is because you have a higher chance of not being rewarded. Um, and that generally is a rule of thumb across various types of investments. Uh, and it's just interesting that gambling maybe is on that next further out spectrum of that, but it is.
Lizzy: Shunned by a lot of people.
Lissa: Yeah, um, I do want to touch on I think there's a parallel with Like most of the people we've talked about or think about when we were talking about gamblers are men right and And that's not always the case right you go to Vegas you see like women at the craps tables you see women Yeah, it's a mix right, but I do think there's it does weigh heavily with men like every fantasy You Football, fantasy, basketball, league that I've ever been in has been majority men, except for the one that I run, which is like split, like half and half, it's pretty split.
Lissa: Um, interestingly, like there are these very generic, over generalized statistics, but I do think they hold some truth, that when you talk about investing in the financial world, you know, women tend to be more risk averse. They tend to, and some of it comes with just lack of knowledge and know how and understanding of how the game of the stock market works or how, you know, alternatives work or things like that.
Lissa: And so, Obviously, I want to make sure that there's like a clear distinction between when we're talking about gambling and when we're talking about financial markets. For sure. Because there's like, for example, taxes, um, there are some tax benefits to financial investments when, you know, capital gains or losses, what, what have you.
Lissa: There are tax implications that could work in your favor. There are taxes to be paid. When you're talking about gambling, it's, it's all, there's no tax benefit. Okay. Like, you can, you can claim losses against your wins and that's about it, but you have to pay taxes on your winnings. And most people do not.
Lissa: And most people don't. Which can get you in even further trouble, right? So part of it, yeah, systemic is how these two things, these various things are treated, but I do think there's parallels in, in terms of the risk, like risk taking and behaviors, human behavior. And I honestly think playing games all these years.
Lissa: Whether like poker, or craps, or blackjack, or playing board games and chess and checkers, like whatever that, those games are that I play, I do think they've had a positive impact on my ability to assess risk. Sure. And take risk. And be analytical.
Lizzy: And be analytical. Understand the odds. Understand strategy.
Lizzy: These are actually valuable skills if you're approaching it with that mindset. You're developing that. And I think that can translate very easily into other elements of life, approaching things with strategy. I mean, a lot of people who gamble regularly are excellent with numbers. Yeah, smart. probability.
Lizzy: You ask someone the odds on like a Man, statistics is hard. Yeah, statistics is hard. That was one of the hardest classes I took in college. A lot of people are pros with that, and that's actually really impressive. These are competencies, these are skills.
Lissa: And like you said, so going back to the stigma thing, like yeah, I do think there's a whole wide range of people who gamble in some way here or there to, you know, bet on the Super Bowl game or Super Bowl squares once a year because it's fun.
Lissa: You're hanging out with everyone and you're just hoping for that one touchdown to happen in that quarter so that you could win 200 bucks. Right. Like it makes it fun. And I do think, yeah, like There's problem gamers and it's not great. And I don't like the exploitative nature of it, but I do think there's fun in it too.
Lissa: Sure, sure.
Lizzy: Just like anything in life, just like anything in life. You know, I think it's really interesting. Earlier, we talked about kind of the physiological and psychological processes What's happening as you're chasing that thrill, um, for the average person and getting like this dopamine response. I do think there's an element to that.
Lizzy: And again, these are broad strokes. Um, but you know, there are biological differences between Men and women in terms of hormones. Um, you know, in general, testosterone tends to make you more competitive and bring out that kind of edge. Whereas having female sex hormones tends to make you more communal and, um, intuitive, you know, more of that kind of, you know, I have a hormone imbalance, right?
Lizzy: That must be why I'm so competitive. Right. And obviously these are, I'm just Broad spectrums, but I think that the, these kind of competitive games do feed into, or the, the testosterone or those kind of male biological elements do feed into that and explain To some extent, those differences, in addition to the cultural, societal factors, the, you know, literacy, the fact that women couldn't have their own money, credit card, bank account.
Lissa: Couldn't open a bank account on their own 60 years ago. Wild. Crazy.
Lizzy: Whole other topic.
Lissa: All right. 20 cents. 20 cents is the segment of the show where both Lizzy and myself, Lissa, each get 60 seconds to give our two cents on today's topic, whether we think it is a net positive or a net negative. Where does 20 cents come from?
Lissa: Because you get the opinion of two dimes. Two dimes. All right. 60 seconds on the clock. Liz, is gambling worth it?
Lizzy: Nah, bro.
Lissa: That was quick.
Lizzy: Uh, gambling is a net negative for me. As I explained, I do not gamble or very, very little. Um, I didn't grow up around it. It was not normalized for me. So there wasn't value placed on it very differently from you.
Lizzy: So I don't have that same kind of experience when I do or if I were to. Overall, I would experience like the. I'm going to lose this money. And it's more of that, I guess, scarcity mindset of, I want to hold onto this. I like my money where I can see it. Um, and I, it's not as enjoyable for me. to make that worth it.
Lizzy: There are exceptions, um, but overall, it's just not, not just not my thing, but I think for other people, perfectly fine if you do it in a healthy way.
Lissa: Ooh, three seconds to spare. You always have time to spare.
Lizzy: Yeah, I'm quick with it.
Lizzy: All right. What about you?
Lissa: Okay, let me preface this by saying I budget using You Need a Budget, YNAB, Liz taught me that, and I have a bucket in there that's a flexible bucket that can be used for things like gifts to people, but also like, you know, fantasy football and things like that.
Lissa: So I think that there's a world where gambling, gaming, you know, spending money on playing games is fine as long as it's controlled. It doesn't affect the rest of your finances and definitely where you're, you have some self awareness when it comes to the behavioral side of it, which I think a lot of people don't.
Lissa: And that's why people become problem gamblers. So for me, because it's so fun because of the cultural aspect, because I have a lot of control, around it, net positive. So fun. I'm not going to stop my March Madness pool. I'm still going to have poker nights, like net positive.
Lizzy: And you should feel no shame in that.
Lizzy: You don't have to feel negative about it. That's your choice for you.
Lissa: For me.
Lizzy: And that's what works for you.
Lissa: All right. Remember, this is what we think at this moment in time, I'm a net positive for gambling. Liz is a net negative. Who knows? She might be on the poker tables in 10 years from now. Who knows? We don't know.
Lissa: Who knows? But right now this is what we think, but for you, no one can make that decision, but you. So what do you think is gambling worth it?
Lizzy: Hit us up. Let us know what you think. DM us on Instagram at netnetpodcast or email us at hi@netnetpodcast.com. And if you want to follow us individually, here's where you can find us.
Lissa: I'm at wealthforwomenofcolor on TikTok, YouTube, and Instagram. And
Lizzy: I'm on Instagram and TikTok at live_well_lizzy
Lissa: All references, statistics, and resources mentioned can be found in our show notes. This podcast is for educational, informational, and entertainment purposes only, and should not be constituted as financial advice.
Lissa: Remember to always do your own research, consult a professional as needed, and feel empowered to make your own decisions.
Lizzy: If you or someone you know has a gambling problem, please seek help. One resource is the National Problem Gambling Helpline that you can call at 1-800-GAMBLER. For those of you based in the United States, Check our show notes for additional resources.