Lizzy and Lissa break down the hidden costs – financial and otherwise – of living abroad. Moving far from home can have tons of benefits, like the ability to start fresh and explore what the world has to offer. But it isn’t a decision to take lightly! In this episode Lizzy and Lissa welcome a special guest: Lissa’s fiancé Allan, who moved abroad to start a life with her.
Lizzy and Lissa break down the hidden costs – financial and otherwise – of living abroad. Moving far from home can have tons of benefits, like the ability to start fresh and explore what the world has to offer. But it isn’t a decision to take lightly! In this episode Lizzy and Lissa welcome a special guest: Lissa’s fiancé Allan, who moved abroad to start a life with her.
Main Topics
00:00 Introduction
00:37 Today’s Special Guest
01:43 Running The Numbers Segment
03:16 Personal Experiences of Living Abroad
06:40 Challenges and Logistics of Moving Abroad
27:18 Visa Challenges
29:12 Identity and Cultural Intersectionality
33:28 Cross Border Financial Planning
36:13 Local Economies, Identity, and Belonging
43:24 Homesickness
52:18 20 Cents (And More) Segment
References for Statistics
https://www.fvap.gov/info/interactive-data-center/overseas
https://www.un.org/en/desa/international-migration-2020-highlights
https://www.statista.com/statistics/978134/share-americans-living-abroad-household-income/
https://www.statista.com/statistics/946822/expats-living-abroad-age/
Lissa: People always say that if so-and-so gets elected, they are going to leave the country, they're going to move abroad, but is that realistic?
Lizzy: Maybe, it could be.
Allan: I think it's probably wishful thinking in some parts, but yeah, there's parts of it that aren't realistic.
Lissa: Maybe in 2024, it might be. Who knows?
Allan: Yeah.
Lissa: So is living abroad worth it? Let's talk about it.
Welcome to Net Net with Lizzy and Lissa, where we analyze hidden costs and empower you to make your own damn decisions in life. Each episode covers a different facet of life, and at the end of each episode, we each give our takes on whether we think something is net positive or net negative.
Lizzy: I'm Lizzy, a strategist and consultant with over 17 years of experience in finance and investing.
Lissa: And I'm Lissa, a personal finance expert and accredited financial counselor. We're best friends who talk about money.
Lizzy: And everything else.
Lissa: And today we have a very special, very handsome first guest on the show. Meet my fiance, Allan.
Lizzy: Welcome, Allan.
Allan: Thank you, thank you for having me.
Lissa: Yeah, thanks for being here. He is here specifically because he's currently living abroad and he did that-
Allan: I am.
Lissa: ... to be with me. So we're going to-
Lizzy: All for you, baby girl. All for you.
Lissa: All for me, just for me.
Allan: Yes, yep.
Lissa: So we're going to talk about that today. We're going to talk about, is living abroad worth it?
Lizzy: Well, let's do it. First up, running the numbers on living abroad.
Lissa: In 2022, an estimated 4.4 million US citizens lived abroad, according to the Overseas Citizen Population Analysis.
Lizzy: And, as of 2019, according to the United Nations, the number of international migrants globally reached an estimated 272 million, or 3.5% of the whole world's population.
Lissa: Right, so there's a lot of movement going on.
Lizzy: Hell yeah, that's a lot.
Lissa: Yeah. According to Statista, 8.7% of respondents living outside of the United States reported making less than US $25,000 per year.
Lizzy: I thought that was so interesting, because there's a little arbitrage there, right? If you move to a country with a lower cost of living-
Lissa: You don't need that much.
Lizzy: ... you can really make do on a lot less.
Lissa: It sounds like, a little bit, but you can live real nice on that and-
Lizzy: Depending on where you go, for sure.
Lissa: Depending on where you're at.
Lizzy: And then, also according to Statista, only 4% of US expats are under 25 years of age, which is the smallest group of all. The largest group is 60 plus, and they have an 18% share. But it was pretty well distributed by age group, which I thought was interesting.
Lissa: And that makes sense, because you need some money to go, so maybe the older you are, presumably you have more.
Lizzy: I'm going to retire and dip out?
Lissa: Yeah, right.
Lizzy: People talk about that.
Lissa: Right. Cool. Well, we know there's more to life than these numbers and statistics, so let's talk about it. Let's dig in.
Allan: Let's talk.
Lissa: Yeah, living abroad.
Lizzy: Living abroad, all right. Lissa, have you ever lived abroad, or have you considered it?
Lissa: Definitely have considered it. We'll get into that. I have not. I've never officially lived outside of California. The longest I spent outside of California was one month working abroad in Japan, and I loved it. If I could have done that for six months or a year, I would've easily done that, if I had that opportunity at that time.
Lizzy: So in your experience, what were some of the biggest differences living in Tokyo?
Lissa: I mean, obviously, the culture and the language and... I mean, like I said, born and raised and always lived in California my whole life, not knowing a soul. I had a couple coworkers that I had emailed with before, but it was the first time I was really brand new to a place. That's my experience. I'm the one out of us three that has the least amount of experience living abroad, so I'd love to hear from you.
Allan: Yeah, I mean, from my perspective, the first time I remember living abroad, it was sometime around 2015 when I moved to New York. I was an expat, it was a corporate decision.
Lissa: And you're from the UK.
Allan: I'm from the UK, so I should have started there, actually.
Lissa: That's okay.
Allan: If I was to tell my complete story-
Lizzy: Tell us the life story.
Allan: I'll tell the complete story. Actually, I was born in Uganda, in Kampala, and sometime around May '91, '92, my parents relocated to the UK, to the southeast of England, a county called Kent. That was my first experience of moving to a new country, and even though I was young and I wasn't fully comprehending all the changes that were going on, I was still cognizant of the fact that I was different and my thought processes, my beliefs, my values were different to those around me. So that was my first experience and, obviously, very different to moving in adulthood. The second time I moved, I was in my late twenties, when I relocated from the UK to New York for the corporate position that I mentioned. Again, my priorities then were different, but as an adult, I was better able to navigate some of those changes than I could do as a child.
And my third experience was, as Lissa mentioned at the beginning, so moving here where I'm now based in LA, again, from the UK, which was a different challenge for different reasons. Again, mainly because my priorities in life were different, but it was no less of a challenge, to overcome some of the hurdles that you mentioned with regards to the cultural differences and language. Even though the words and the language we use are technically the same, there are plenty of instances where I've said things and people look at each other and then, usually, they look at Lissa and think, "Wait, she has to know what he means." She's like, "Nope."
Lissa: So you were born in Uganda and then you moved to the UK where you lived for two decades, right? A long chunk of your life. So anytime you leave the UK, that's what feels like abroad to you, right? Because UK feels home.
Allan: UK feels like that.
Lissa: Right. So then you went to New York for a couple years, went back to the UK, and then, as of the last year and a half, two years, you've been in Los Angeles.
Allan: That's right.
Lizzy: What were some of those challenges? What were you navigating and was it different the first time you moved to New York versus moving here to LA?
Allan: Yeah, that's a great question. I think, for me, the first culture shock I remember experiencing when I moved to New York was simply not... It's more of a navigation thing. When I'm in London, I have a tube map, I have it memorized in my head. I know that if I get lost, I don't need a phone. I can just find that way-
Lissa: The tube map is like the train.
Allan: Thank you for clarifying that.
Lizzy: Metro, train. Yeah.
Allan: The London Underground, the Metro train, or the subway. But I have that in my mind, so it's a bit of an irrational paranoia, but I know if my phone dies, I can make my way home. And I think, in the first few weeks of living in a new place, I'm sure maybe you experienced it in Japan and places that you've lived as well, you have to spend those first few weeks just navigating and getting oriented. In New York, it was slightly easier, because for people that don't know, they employ basically like a grid system. So 1st, 2nd, 3rd Street, and First, Second, 3rd Avenue.
Lizzy: It's easy to learn, yeah.
Allan: That made it easier to learn. LA was slightly different in that respect, because I didn't necessarily have that as a reference point, but what I did have was Lissa, who is a very good driver and she knows her way around and she was my... I remember feeling initially uncomfortable with the level of dependency I had on Lissa, so that was one thing that I... It wasn't an immediately obvious struggle for me, but I've always had challenges asking for help, and being the person that I am, who's hyper-independent, and we were just talking about this recently, that's been a lifelong challenge for me. So I would always just try and figure it out myself.
Lizzy: Right.
Allan: There was one specific instance, I think I was getting my social security card. I looked up the office and it was two miles away from where we live in Mar Vista, and I thought, "Let me just walk there. I'm sure it will be a nice pleasant walk, two miles."
Lissa: Two miles in LA is like 45 minutes.
Allan: I was just thinking of the time and I wasn't thinking of-
Lizzy: But you're used to a walkable environment.
Allan: Yeah. Exactly, exactly. But again, it was a different experience. I'm not saying good or bad, just different.
Lizzy: It's really interesting you say that, because I think that's something people won't obviously think about, is just the basic understanding of navigating your environment and how that contributes to that feeling of loss of independence, loss of control or freedom until you get up to speed on that.
Lissa: That's why I thought it was interesting that you said that about the hyper-independence, because Liz is very much like that. You guys are alike in that manner.
Lizzy: Yeah.
Lissa: I feel like I am, too, but that's why I'd love to know about your experience living abroad.
Lizzy: So I lived in Barcelona for a year in college. It was really my first time out of the country. It's funny, it was an interesting culture shock.
Speaker 4: It's story time.
Lizzy: I had studied Spanish in seventh grade, I had a really good grasp of reading and writing it, not as experienced speaking it. I was so nonchalant about big life changes that I really was not that prepared. And when I went there, a friend of my grandfather, who I had never met, was supposed to pick me up at the airport. Well, my flight was delayed by five hours, they lost my bags, and when I get there, he's long gone. And this is 2008, so cell phones from the US do not work abroad, and I'm just like, "Fuck. Okay, what do I do?" And so that was my first experience with travel, of figuring shit out. So I went into an internet cafe and bought credits on Skype to call one of my friends to wake up my parents in the middle of the night, because I didn't have the address of where I was supposed to go.
Lissa: Oh, my gosh.
Lizzy: And everything was in Catalan, not Spanish, because it's in Catalonia, a separate region of Spain. So it was just a big shock, it took several days for me to get my bags. I think the biggest thing is, the program that I was in, we lived in dorms for about six weeks, and then you just had to go find your own apartment. And I was only 18 years old, and so this was really the first time I'd ever had to do that, period. And I didn't really want to put a lot of energy into it, because I was like, "I just want to go have fun."
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: So I agreed to move into the first place I went to. I lived with this 50-year-old Argentine man. I've mentioned this on the pod before, in the roommates episode. It was like, "All right, I guess this is what we're doing now."
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: What I didn't have is the understanding of navigating the geography of the city. So I wanted to live on the beach, and I did for the first five or six months, not realizing because of the way their public transportation is set up, that's actually pretty far removed from everything, so it made it way more challenging to be involved in the group of other students, to get to know people. And eventually, I moved into a different place, because it just was inconvenient, but I wouldn't have known that.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: For sure.
Lissa: Man. Well, so you mentioned you were 18, so you're younger, and this was through a school program.
Lizzy: Yep.
Lissa: But what were the finances like? Because in order for you to even get credits at an internet cafe-
Lizzy: Yeah, so this is funny, and I probably have a blurry memory of it. But the program that I went through, it was called EAP, it is a UCLA program. Actually, the tuition and the room and board was the same as my regular UCLA. It was just covered that way, which I had financial aid for and scholarship, so I didn't really pay anything out of pocket for that. I decided to go on a whim, versus some of my other friends I met who had been planning this for years. I was so inexperienced about college that I didn't even know it was a thing, so it wasn't like I saved money.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: My mom would send me money for my rent, which I think when I moved into a fancy apartment, was 500 euros, which was like, "Oh, my God." It was so exorbitant. And I worked a basically full-time job for a US company at the time, which interestingly... It's just funny, your perspective as a kid. This was 2008, I worked for a financial company. The crash was going crazy. I remember being in London on a vacation and my boss hadn't paid me yet, and being like, "Oh, my God. I have no money." And my friend, Ashley, friend of the pod, had to pay for everything on our trip, and I just didn't realize he had no money because the world was imploding and his small business was not getting paid by all of our financial firm clients.
Lissa: Oh, my gosh.
Lizzy: So yeah, I was broke, broke, broke.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: But you just made it work. Lots of eating pasta, lots of $9 flights to Bratislava and wherever we could go for cheap.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: Yeah, it was just an adventure.
Lissa: Allan, you moved abroad to the US twice. Once in your twenties or early thirties to New York, and then more recently, late thirties, to Los Angeles. What would you say those experiences were in terms of preparation, saving, or finances? You came for work.
Allan: Yeah, so it's interesting. Terminology thing. I noticed, when you were introducing the pod, you mentioned some statistics and used migrants as the reference. I was thinking about this at the time I moved, "Am I a migrant? Am I an expat? Am I this, that, or the other?"
Lissa: An alien, like US likes to call people "Aliens."
Allan: Because to answer your first question about preparation, the first thing is filling out all the forms and getting the visas processed and explaining to the authorities your reason for moving to the new location. So all of that forced me into a place where I had to really seriously understand how I need to describe myself, my story, my journey, and that was something I never really had to do. When you live and stay in your own environment, you are just accepted as an ordinary citizen, so that was the first piece of just learning that I had to navigate. But following that, I was pretty casual and pretty relaxed about my first move to New York, because I had been on a couple of work trips there previously, and I had a sense of what the culture was like. There's a lot of similarities between New York and London, in terms of some of the subcultures.
There's a strong Afro Caribbean community in London that influenced me, there's also a strong African American and Latino community in New York. Similar foods, similar music, things that made it feel like the transition wasn't too big. I still had to navigate the biggest challenge of all, which was finding somewhere to live. And I think I made the mistake of assuming that I would just be able to show up and there would be a long list of places I could find online.
Lissa: Like, "Come, we want you to live with us."
Allan: Right, right. Exactly. The first culture shock I had in that respect was it wasn't possible for me to find a place to live without going through a broker.
Lissa: Right, right.
Allan: I had no idea what this-
Lissa: Because you need credit-
Allan: You need credit.
Lissa: ... you need money and a deposit.
Allan: And a deposit, and so you need to have all these prerequisites in place and then you need to go through this middle person.
Lizzy: And that would be different for many US citizens moving to New York City. New York is its own animal.
Lissa: It's its own.
Lizzy: Yeah.
Allan: Right, right. So that's actually something I'm just learning now. Again, it's one of those experiences where you actually don't realize until you arrive and then, suddenly, you're like, "Oh, my goodness, I have to just find someone I feel comfortable with, I have to have all these things in place." Lissa and I were talking recently and I was explaining about the credit situation, so opening a bank account. And we went through this when I arrived in LA as well.
Lissa: It's just the rigmarole of opening a bank account when you're not from the US and opening one here. It might be the same in other countries or maybe not.
Allan: Yeah.
Lizzy: I did it in Spain.
Allan: Did you experience that in Spain as well?
Lizzy: Yeah, I think it was... I don't remember it being super complex, but I think, as I was a student, it may have been a certain type of account, which was different. Whereas you were on a work visa, so a permanent resident or however that works may be a different factor. I know you really went through it.
Allan: I did, I did, and I think there's a certain element of bringing a perception of your own value from where you come from, which is measured in different ways. So my credit score was one of those metrics, I was very proud of my credit score-
Lissa: In the UK?
Allan: In the UK, yeah. I was very proud of it-
Lissa: What is the credit range there? Is it similar?
Allan: You've put me on the spot there.
Lissa: Sorry.
Allan: It's similar, it's just a different scale. It's numbers.
Lissa: It's the numbers, yeah.
Allan: It's numbers.
Lissa: So you were top of the line, "I got my credit, I could get a mortgage if I wanted. I could get anything."
Allan: I was pouring through my-
Lizzy: It takes time.
Lissa: Takes time. That's like a lot of time-
Lizzy: An achievement, right?
Allan: Absolutely, yeah. It takes time, it's an achievement, it's something that I intentionally had been working towards.
Lissa: Towards, yeah.
Allan: And then I arrived in the US and it was like-
Lissa: They're like, "That doesn't qualify here."
Allan: "Sorry, that doesn't mean anything to us." And then I experienced something similar to what you experienced in Barcelona with regards to running out of actual cash. And of all the most humbling things in life, when you feel like you've made it in life and you've been earning money for a few years, going back to that place where it's thinking about your next meal. I appreciate that this is a reality for people day to day, but I hadn't ever thought that I would be in that position anytime soon, and just not having access to that-
Lizzy: Because of the challenges of multinational bank accounts?
Allan: Right, right. Exactly, yeah. So picking up the phone to my parents and saying, "Hey, mom. Hey, dad. I need some money," at the age of 29 was-
Lissa: On a wire transfer or something.
Allan: Right, right. Of course, they were happy to help, but internally, I felt somewhat... I was just in a place of difficulty reconciling with that.
Lissa: I'm glad you brought that up, because there's like a... What was the statistic? Globally, it's like three and a half percent of people are living abroad, so moving to different countries? And there's so many different reasons people move, right? For work, for school, for an experience. I worked abroad as well for a month. For family reasons, there's so many reasons people move, but some of the time, some people don't think about those logistics and the financial logistics of, "What do I need to learn and get in place before I get to a place, before I get there to make sure I have the smoothest transition possible?"
Lizzy: You just don't know what you don't know, which is what you spoke to.
Allan: Yeah.
Lizzy: In my experience, the benefit of those things is... The more challenging situations you navigate where you're like, "The hell do I do? I'm a fish out of water," the more your tolerance for that develops, your grit develops.
Lissa: That's resilience.
Lizzy: Your resilience, it takes a lot less to phase you. And then your willingness to go out of that comfort zone the next time certainly grows. Has that been your experience?
Allan: Absolutely, I think there's an element of... I don't know how to describe it, but for me, I needed a change of environment. I was stagnating where I was, I felt like... For most of my twenties, I was in a situation where I was in a long-term relationship, I'd just come out of that relationship, and I was looking for a new challenge, a new place where people didn't know who I was, they didn't know my background, there were no preconceptions, and this felt like it was a clean slate, so-
Lissa: Major upside, major benefit of being abroad.
Lizzy: Reinvent yourself.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: No one knows you.
Lissa: Start fresh.
Allan: Absolutely.
Lizzy: Right.
Allan: Start fresh.
Lissa: Change your name and everything. Did you change your name?
Allan: I thought about it. The way it was pronounced a few times, I thought I did. Yeah, who knows?
Lizzy: So I want to ask, because we touched on these logistics, and I got to experience firsthand while you guys were figuring out what you were going to do while you were in a long-distance relationship. And I remember Lissa's list of all of the factors in your life that would have to change and be uprooted if you moved to London instead. It was extensive. So talk to me about some of those factors in who moved where and what you have to uproot, because I think most people don't consider all of those things.
Lissa: I considered, and this is still a consideration, right?
Lizzy: Sure.
Lissa: Life is life, we haven't committed to living in Los Angeles for the next 40 years. We don't know what's going to happen, we're always in conversation about it. Allan clearly ended up moving here first, he was able to come on a visa through his job, we're getting married next year. It's all good. When we were deciding who was going to move abroad and live where, the biggest thing for me was family, because all of my family lives in California and I've always lived in California. But when you think about it, it's the same on Allan's side. It's like one of us is going to have to make that sacrifice.
Lizzy: It's a big sacrifice.
Lissa: Right, and o that was a big one. On the job side, lucky for me, when we were making that decision, I was already in plans to leave my job and be self-employed. I actually had more flexibility to make the move. That's not how it panned out, but I don't know. What did you have in mind? What was important to you?
Allan: Yeah, a lot of similar things. Family was a big one. I think just, as you get older and you spend more time away from your family, that becomes something that, at least from my perspective, I was thinking of as important, to maintain that contact. But I had a few more practical reasons, which surprise, surprise was top of mind for me. So I was thinking about things like, "I could do the same work that I'm doing in the UK and earn one and a half times the salary, even two times," because of the exchange rate.
Lissa: But one and a half times the living expenses.
Allan: One and a half times the living expenses, exactly. And it was also timing, because this was during the pandemic, where we were thinking about the next step and, at that time, it felt like just being in the position where I had actually moved back home to live with my family and I was working towards buying a property in the UK. When I reflected on our two situations, with Lissa already being settled in the US, we spoke about it a few times, weighed up some of the pros and cons, and it felt like, from my perspective, with Lissa already having that set in the US, me moving here would be less of a significant shift in the short term.
Lizzy: Yeah.
Allan: But longer term, there are other things to bear in mind.
Lissa: Part of that list I was telling you is I own my home and I live in it, and I have tenants, I have people living with me. So figuring out the house situation, all the furniture, all the things, all the items I owned, because Allan had already moved back with his family and his stuff was already packed in storage, and things like that. So I guess, from that logistical level-
Lizzy: And you have dogs.
Lissa: Shoot, I forgot about Rockwell and Miles.
Lizzy: You were going through a lot of health issues, your doctors were here.
Lissa: How did I forget about Rockwell and Miles?
Lizzy: This is what I remember, which-
Allan: It's their birthday today, by the way.
Lissa: Yeah, yeah. Well, you're going to see this episode later on, but we're recording this on Rockwell and Miles' birthday. And that was a big thing for me. I was like, "How am I going to move abroad? How does the dog thing work? Because I'm not putting them in a cage for... Do I just bring them on the plane with me?" It's the very tiny small logistics.
Lizzy: Well, I remember us having this conversation and you rattling off like, "All of my beauty treatments are here, all of my doctors are here."
Lissa: Which I can replace.
Lizzy: Your acupuncturist, your vet. Yes.
Lissa: Which I can replace.
Lizzy: Absolutely, you can replace, but you had a long list-
Lissa: A longer list than Allan's.
Lizzy: A longer list.
Lissa: Allan had his barber.
Lizzy: Your barber, which is valid.
Lissa: Very valid.
Lizzy: Very valid, but I remember that striking me of... Those things wouldn't have even crossed my mind-
Lissa: As a young...
Lizzy: ... as a factor. And I was like, "Wow, that really is a factor. That is a lot of little things to uproot," and obviously, you've experienced this, but I think that's an interesting element.
Lissa: All the...
Lizzy: Everything.
Lissa: All the material items and all the services and doctors were a big one, which again, you can replace, but I think I was seeing more doctors at the time than Allan was.
Lizzy: Yeah, you were navigating and are still navigating IVF, and all of that stuff.
Lissa: Right, right.
Lizzy: Yeah. One of the things we've touched on in passing is getting a visa, the immigration process, and that is a huge factor in if you can move, how you can move, if you can move and can work. And I have my own experiences with this, with my ex-husband having gone through the full immigration process, and as I mentioned on one of our prior episodes, it's really the reason we got married in the first place. Because he was a student here, he was going to have to leave, and that's a life-changing factor. And for international students in the US, you are not legally allowed to work.
Lissa: Sorry to interrupt.
Lizzy: No, go ahead, go ahead.
Lissa: It just made me think. I've mentored students at UCLA and USC, some of who are here on a student visa and, come their senior year, it is so stressful to have to think about, "I want to stay here, I've built a life here, I have friends here, but in order to stay here, I need a job, otherwise I'm getting sent off."
Lizzy: Yeah, yeah.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: And what you were describing brought back memories of, one, that feeling of navigating that and being like, "I'm your reason to stay or your ability to stay," and that's a lot of weird pressure. For him, that experience was crazy, but also having no network here. You described having to get Western Union transfers from his family every week just to survive, because he could not work.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: And then going through that immigration process is stressful, it can be very expensive. Just the filings themselves are fairly expensive. We did it without an attorney, because that's how I do things, and it was actually fine, but it's a lot. It is a big, big factor. And that's just the situation here. Every country has its own.
Lissa: Right, every country has their own rules, but here in the US, it's a big thing of... We think about that all the time. If something were to happen to your job, hopefully not, knock on wood, you'd get deported, right?
Lizzy: Yeah. What a risk, right?
Lissa: Yeah, what a huge risk to live abroad, is just like if something changes that's out of your control, you have to uproot and go back to where you came from, essentially.
Lizzy: Wild. Yeah, wild.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: So are there any other meaningful emotional or mental health type of costs or benefits that you've experienced?
Allan: I think one which kind of sometimes gets overlooked, and it's not necessarily obvious, is the concept of your identity. So I remember the first time I arrived on American soil to live... That makes it sound like I was... Right, in front of the flag. Exactly. No, when I first arrived in the US and started to interact with people in terms of trying to build my network and have conversations with people, I would often get asked where I'm from. And everybody knows that that can sometimes be a loaded question or it feels like a loaded question, but being asked where I'm from in the UK was a fairly easy answer compared to that question here in the US.
Lizzy: Interesting.
Allan: And it was my first experience of some of the intersectionality and cultural challenges and sensitivities that a lot of Americans experience, which I'd only ever seen on TV, but I'd never been amongst.
Lizzy: Sure.
Allan: So I was casually rattling off the fact that I was... Depending on who I spoke to, but I would sometimes say, "I'm British," or I would sometimes say, "I'm Ugandan," with a lot of certainty. And I would speak about it quite often, and then I would repeat the question as a curtsy to someone, but then it became slightly awkward, because people would say, "Yeah, I'm American," and it wasn't the same for everybody, but I would probe. I did that thing. You know what thing I'm talking about, right?
Lizzy: Yeah, "No, where are you really from?"
Allan: Right, right, right.
Lissa: I think it's okay when you ask it.
Allan: Yeah.
Lissa: I don't think I get asked by white people and I'm like, "No, I'm from Salinas, California."
Lizzy: I don't know that that's uniquely American, but maybe. It is a very American thing to be, "We are all American," and that's the identity many people claim beyond their ethnicity.
Allan: Absolutely, absolutely.
Lissa: Interesting.
Allan: Yeah. No, it's humbling, because I think this plays into the point that you were making about... I actually think some of the benefits of moving, it increases your awareness of some of those differences. I had this preconception of... I speak about the Black American community in particular, because that was a particular group that I gravitated towards, but I had this preconception that they were in a monolith and everybody was okay with identifying as African American and believed in the story of what happened to their ancestors. I walked into the room very clear in my mind that this was something that everybody shared, and it wasn't. It was a different experience depending on who you spoke to beyond just skin color, but nationality, ethnicity. All of these factors started to play into this dynamic. So again, it made me reflect on my own identity and look deeper into that and understand that, actually, there's different layers to this. To me, that was a good thing, but someone else in that situation may have found it different.
Lissa: Yeah, and I mean, that goes to show how open you are and curious about people and learning new information, because yeah, it could have been a little humbling and you've learned something from it, but best believe that there are people looking at a Black British person and also thinking the same as every other Black British person.
Allan: Absolutely.
Lissa: Which is unfair, but it happens. Especially when people don't travel much or they're not introduced to many cultures, it's hard to know what you don't know about other people.
Lizzy: Right, and the intersection of race and gender and nationality and cultural identity, and how those are so complex. Being Black in the US is not necessarily the same as being Black in the UK, and even within those, there's so many different experiences that I think it's really powerful, your point of, "You have to define that for yourself and can't make those assumptions about anyone."
Allan: Yeah, agreed.
Lissa: So there was this interesting thing that I was talking about to some... I was in this externship towards my CFP, like certified financial planning, and they would have these different financial planners, financial advisors come speak to us and we could ask them questions, and there were so many questions that came up about, "How do you do financial planning for people who want to live abroad, move abroad, or even couples where they're citizens of different nations?"
Lizzy: Right.
Lissa: And there is no field. There's a field emerging called Cross Border Planning, so financial planning, because when you think about it, let's say you're from the United States and you've lived here for 10 years. 10 years? You've lived here and worked here 10 years post-college. You're contributing to a 401(k), you're contributing to social security. In order to qualify for social security when you hit your sixties, you have to work a certain number of quarters to qualify, so there's these strategic elements of, if you've only worked here for eight years, a financial planner might say, "Well, if you want to be considered for social security later, you might want to stick around and work a little longer and wait to move until later," so there's so many nuances to how to plan your financial future when it comes to, "I just want to be a nomad and live here and there." Were you paying taxes?
Lizzy: Taxes, taxes are a big one.
Lissa: Are you paying taxes?
Lizzy: How many exact days are you spending abroad versus in the US?
Lissa: The tracking, the organization of the management of it all, it gets to be very time-consuming, but the problem is most people don't actually do it, because they don't know. Which is not anyone's fault, there's not enough resources to learn.
Lizzy: It's complex.
Lissa: But then you're hit with these big problems later, because you didn't track how many days you lived in one place versus the other, and you didn't track your tax situation.
Lizzy: I mean, this may be obvious, but I think some people travel to other countries or jokingly, or maybe seriously talk about moving to another country, without the full acknowledgement that this is a totally different system with different laws, different customs. I think people take that lightly sometimes. Even traveling and you get drunk, you party, you go wild, and it's like, "Bro, the legal system here is a little different than the US." I think that's an important acknowledgement, just the difference and the healthy respect for the way another country operates.
Lissa: Right. I mean, on a broader level, what do you guys think about mass amounts of people moving into different countries? I know there's a lot of Americans moving to Portugal, because they have this visa system that they want more people to come, but what does it mean for locals? What does it mean for locals of a nation? And this is a very loaded topic, obviously, for the US.
Lizzy: Girl, it's a lot.
Lissa: I know it's very loaded, but if 4% of the globe is moving to other countries, that's going to just increase as time goes on.
Lizzy: I'm curious, your experience navigating your Ugandan and your British identity, and what I've seen in some European countries, people who immigrate there are considered outsiders, to some extent. With my ex, he was from Cameroon, they were not French. Even though they were colonized by the French, right? But he was Black, so he wasn't French. Has that been your experience in the UK? Have you been othered even in your home, because you are not European back to the Middle Ages or what?
Allan: Yeah. So it's interesting, because for me, moving to the UK, I felt as though... I didn't feel like I was particularly othered. There was a natural curiosity about my background and where I was from, but it didn't feel like... Again, I think I was young at the time, so I didn't fully appreciate some of the things that did go on behind the scenes, but I internalized the need to fit in and be accepted by the masses, so I would conform. I started to experiment with things like, "How do I perm my hair, so it doesn't look as Afro?" Because, initially, kids were curious about my Afro, so they were just like, "What material is this? Does Velcro work on it?"
All those things. Kids were being kids, but inside, and again, as a young child, I didn't know how to navigate these emotions. So to me, it just felt like, "I don't know what this is, but I don't like people touching my hair and playing with it and pretending it's a toy, so let me try and change it so that doesn't happen." And I didn't share that with my parents at the time, so if they hear this, they'll probably be like...
Lissa: Even as a kid, though, how would you know? You internalize certain things. And going back to what you said about identity, I think that's a major thing when it comes to living abroad, whether that's for a short period of time or a long period of time, it's the interactions you have with other people. Are you welcomed or are you othered or are there microaggressions or do people want to learn all about you and where you come from? All those things mixed together affect you in some way.
Lizzy: We've talked about that a lot, Lissa, with your experience being the child of immigrants to the US and the pressure they felt or the desire they felt to assimilate.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: And that's really strong, but what do you give up and how do you navigate that? Do you feel like now, living in the US, either in New York or here in LA, you've felt yourself adapting to the culture here or taking on some Americanisms, and what is the line for you?
Allan: Yeah. Wow, that's a great question. I feel-
Lissa: And I think he was rooting for Team USA a little bit in the Olympics.
Allan: It's funny. Yeah, because I've heard the US National Anthem so many times over the last few days, I'm thinking I may as well just learn the words at this point. I definitely would say yes to adapting to my environment, I think that's something that is hardwired in all of us to a degree, because I think it's just... For many reasons, but just for convenience, right? It's like you need to be able to navigate your local systems. I remember coming here for the first few weeks, the weather was confusing to me, because I landed in January thinking, "I'm going to LA, it's going to be sunny all the time and hot," and it felt like home, it felt like the UK. So I would wear a jacket places and when I would go to a restaurant or a bar, I was looking for the coat check to give someone my jacket, and nowhere had a coat check.
Lissa: We don't have coats here, all right? We don't need coats.
Allan: It sounds like a basic thing, but over time, my body became used to the fluctuations in temperature, and just little things like that. So that was more on a subconscious level, but on a conscious level, I think it was things like... For example, I used to become reliant on walking everywhere. Where I lived in London and New York, they're very walkable places. I had to become okay with learning that I can't necessarily walk everywhere or it's okay to drive five, 10 minutes to get somewhere. That used to be a thing that was a pet peeve of mine, of just driving five, 10 minutes, because it was bad for the environment, I wanted to get some exercise, but then there comes a point where you need to have some degree of balance to fit in. So I'm still on that journey, I don't feel like that's necessarily ever going to end, but I feel much more comfortable with the adaptation that I've made.
I do just want to briefly touch on your question about mass migration to places like Portugal, if I can, because I've also been cognizant of what the experience is like for people in the places I'm arriving to. I haven't spoken to anyone that lives in Lisbon or Portugal, but I can imagine that it may have an effect on the local economy, in terms of prices. And I've seen that in Uganda where, when there are tourists in certain places, and they are usually pretty easily identifiable, there's a word they have called "Muzungu," which means... Generally, it translates to "The lost one," but it's often-
Lissa: That's what they're called.
Allan: Yeah. Well, yeah, it was what they would use to call white Europeans primarily, but now it's been expanded to just anyone that's generally a tourist and looks like they have money, or whatever. So if you walk into a shop and you hear the word "Muzungu," understand that the prices are about to double, and you'll see this effect in lots of, I would imagine, lots of economies or countries where there are migrants arriving, or expats. And for people that live there on a working wage, you can only imagine how that affects their ability to just get around and survive.
Lizzy: Right, right.
Allan: So that's another factor that sort into...
Lizzy: That's significant.
Allan: Yeah, yeah.
Lissa: So quick question on, "Is living abroad worth it?" Because I think about the financial costs. Depending on how long you plan to live abroad, I know you were away for a year, you've done a couple years at a time. Liz, for you, when you lived abroad for a year for school, did you visit home at all or were you there for the whole year straight?
Lizzy: I came home, because I was so homesick. I thought I was going to move back.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: So I had a really hard time making friends when I was there. I was young, I didn't drink, we've talked about on an episode, and it was just hard for me to find my people and I was really lonely and the culture shock was really challenging. One of the biggest things, and this may sound silly, is, at that time, you and I played basketball every day at UCLA. Every day with all of our friends. Culturally, it is very different in Spain. There's not a lot of recreational pickup basketball, it is club sports. It's much more organized, much more formalized. And just having that, my favorite thing to do in the world, as well as daily exercise, and the endorphins and everything that come with that, missing that was significant. And, ultimately, I played with a club for a little while, it wasn't my thing. And eventually, literally, I had to go to the hood and play with all the immigrants.
All my friends were the Dominicans and Ecuadorians, and stuff, because Spanish people in the center of the city, there was no pickup basketball at all at this time. I came home in December. I got there in August, I came home in December for Christmas, and when I came home, I wasn't sure if I was going back. And then I ended up, during that trip, deciding I was going to move in with some other friends that I had just met right before I came home. Move to a more central location, move in with some other Americans, so that I would have some of that social system, and it ended up being an amazing experience the second half of it, but it was challenging.
Allan: Yeah.
Lissa: So Allan, when you lived in New York, that was about two years, two and a half years?
Allan: Yeah, two and a half years.
Lissa: How many times did you go back and forth between the UK and New York to visit family and friends?
Allan: Oh, my goodness. A lot, but more so in the beginning. I remember going back home after a month and I think I made an excuse of just picking up the rest of my belongings, because I didn't want to admit to anyone that I was having a hard time.
Lissa: You're homesick, yeah.
Allan: But yeah, when I first arrived in New York, I didn't land in Manhattan, in Midtown. Like a lot of expat companies, I was stationed out in Jersey. They gave me an apartment, which was nice, I felt very privileged to have that, but I felt like I was in the middle of nowhere and I didn't have people I could speak to.
Lissa: So you went back home for a month into being there?
Allan: Yes.
Lissa: And then you went back and forth pretty frequently? Because that adds up, flights.
Allan: Well, yeah. On the point of homesickness, it was specifically certain traditions or birthdays. So friends having birthdays-
Lissa: And you don't want to miss it. FOMO.
Allan: That really hit hard.
Lissa: FOMO, big cost. Major costs of living abroad.
Allan: Then seeing all the posts online of the group of friends that I was connected to having fun.
Lissa: Yeah, that's that FOMO. You were not able to play basketball..
Lizzy: I have a funny story about this.
Allan: Yeah.
Lizzy: My younger brother, who I'm extremely close to, was in middle school, I think, at the time, which is a challenging age. He and I were so close. And I almost considered not going, because I didn't want to not be there for him. And at the time, my stepdad and I coached his AAU basketball team and this was one of the highlights of my whole life, was coaching with him. It was so fun. And I was always reeling him in, because he'd get so mad, yelled at the refs, and the very next game after I left, he got ejected.
Lissa: Oh, my gosh. So you're like-
Lizzy: Because I wasn't there.
Lissa: ... "I wasn't there to help my little brother."
Lizzy: I wasn't there to help him reel him in. But that experience of, "This is going to be amazing for me personally," but there's a big opportunity cost. You're sacrificing that time, that feeling of guilt, or just FOMO of not being there for your people is real.
Lissa: And then this move, the living abroad, being in Los Angeles, I feel like we're averaging about one to two trips to the UK per year, which is great, but one, you're going to still miss things. That's not going to cover all of your friends and family's birthdays, and stuff. But then, also, the cost that it takes to fly back and forth.
Lizzy: Right, and stay somewhere, depending if you don't-
Lissa: The hotel is actually way more than the flights. So those are things to consider for living abroad. I guess it's different if you have no friends, no family, and you just want that fresh start and, you have no one to come visit or you don't miss anything of your old place. It's a little different than when you are straddling to life goals, to-
Lizzy: That's been a consideration for me. I can't say I haven't thought about it at various times in my life, especially after college. I studied abroad my junior year, knocked out my senior year like, "I want to get the hell out of here, I want to go back." But ultimately, every time, that's been the factor. It's like, "I like my life here," and it's a trade-off.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: I'm curious, I have one last question for you, Allan. What are some of the things that, while you're here, keep you feeling connected to your home, your culture that ground you and make it easier to navigate?
Allan: Yeah, this is an easy one. So the Premier League, soccer, football is probably my number one passion. Even when I was living in the UK, that was something that I just knew, if I'd had a bad week or whatever, it was just one of my rituals, my routines. It's the weekend, it's something to look forward to. And in actual fact, I can watch more games here than I can in the UK, because of how TV licensing works in the UK. So that's a huge thing. Well, let me just backtrack a little bit. So when I first arrived, Lissa did something really touching for me. She actually put a sign up saying, "Welcome," and she put a little card in an envelope that said, "If you ever feel homesick and want to go home, travel to see family, I got you," and it was just a hand note, but it was just something that-
Lizzy: A coupon?
Lissa: A coupon for a flight.
Allan: Yeah, yeah. So it's little things like that, little gestures that I think people do that go a long way. And probably the third thing is there are certain occasions where I find foods or things that remind me of home. There's a pub in Santa Monica called Ye Olde King's Head, I think. And I went there recently and had fish and chips, and I didn't think I would find fish and chips in LA that was comparable to fish and chips back home. But once I had that, it just felt just very grounding. Yeah, yeah.
Lizzy: All right, we got to go there.
Lissa: Yeah.
Allan: Those are probably the three things. Food, sports, and hobbies, and just people around you that are kind and sensitive. Yeah.
Lizzy: It's funny you say the food thing. I remember, in Spain, most of the students I was with, we were all SoCal kids. The lack of Mexican food, bro, that was a challenge. Especially growing up in a Mexican household, and that was what we ate every day. And there was no semblance of it there at that time, it was rough.
Allan: Sorry, just on that point about Mexican food. When I came to visit Lissa in the US... This was back in 2018, I think, before I relocated to the UK. I realized I'd been living a lie about Mexican food. I tried food here and apparently this is not even the best Mexican food, this is not super authentic.
Lizzy: Depends.
Lissa: No, the specific place he's talking about was like a fresh mix.
Lizzy: Oh, god.
Lissa: Bougie restaurants.
Lizzy: Yeah, bougie Mexican.
Allan: Right, right. Bougie Mexican.
Lissa: And that was way better than any Mexican food you've ever had.
Allan: I remember trying it and it just completely changed my perception of Mexican food, and then I realized, again, it was just like... This is one of those other aspects of traveling, you realize that the same dish or food or cuisine is completely different.
Lizzy: The authenticity.
Allan: The authenticity, exactly.
Lizzy: I love that. Now you know.
Lissa: Yeah. All right, 20 Cents. 20 Cents is the segment of the show where both Lizzie and myself, Lissa, each get 60 seconds to give our 2 cents on today's topic, whether it's a net positive or a net negative. Where does 20 Cents come from?
Lizzy: Because you get the opinion of two dimes.
Lissa: Two dimes. And, today, plus one.
Allan: dime?
Lissa: Are you a dime? All right, three dimes. Yeah, men can be dimes. So today, we're going to each get a take on whether we think is living abroad worth it. So Lizzie-
Lizzy: 60 seconds on the clock.
Lissa: Yeah, 60 seconds on the clock. Is living abroad worth it?
Lizzy: All right. For me, living abroad was one of the most foundational experiences of my life, in terms of learning how to navigate the world independently, learning how to navigate whatever weird challenge came up, and gaining an appreciation for other cultures and for travel. And that really set the stage for my life ever since, and even though that was the only time I have lived abroad, it's certainly something I've considered and won't rule out in the future. At this moment, it's more important to me to be here with my community, with my family and my friends, but I think it is absolutely worthwhile, and I wish that everyone had the opportunity to experience it once in their life. So it's a net positive for me.
Lissa: Net positive. Seven seconds to spare.
Lizzy: I went slow this time.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: I was trying to space it out.
Lissa: Yeah. That's a good explanation, though. All right.
Lizzy: All right. Are you up, Lissa?
Lissa: Yep.
Lizzy: Let's go.
Lissa: So living abroad, I have the least amount of experience, as we've talked about. I've only been outside of the country for one month, that's the longest I've been out of the country, I've traveled a lot, and that was in Japan. I like the idea, right? We have a very global family, me and Allan. Uganda, Philippines, UK, California, but that's not even considering our friends who are all over the place. So I do like the idea of embracing other cultures and being in other places and not thinking that California is my be-all, end-all, even though it is a really amazing place. For future-proofing and for the same reasons that Liz said, even though it's not in the near future right now, it's definitely a net positive for me. I do think I see us living abroad, relative to what that means to me. I made it.
Lizzy: You made it, you made it, you made it.
Lissa: I made it.
Lizzy: You made it, yeah.
Lissa: So net positive. Two net positives so far. All right, last one.
Lizzy: All right, Allan.
Allan: I get a go?
Lizzy: Bring it on home.
Lissa: Honest take right, right? Honest take.
Allan: I'm going net positive. I think change is scary and, just like anything, when you put yourself in a position where you challenge yourself to do something that scares you, you learn something new and it reinforces your ability to overcome those thoughts and fears that we all have, that tell you, "What if something goes wrong? What if it doesn't work out? What if this? What if that?" The other reason as well is I think the two most valuable skills that I've learned through my journey so far have been self-awareness and communication, and those cultural differences, those unwritten rules, force you to look through the obvious things and identify some of the nuances that might influence your perspective.
Lizzy: Love that.
Lissa: Cool. Three net positives.
Lizzy: That's a first.
Lissa: That's a first.
Lizzy: First triple.
Lissa: First guest.
Lizzy: Hat-trick.
Lissa: Well, remember, this is what we think at this moment in time, because no one can make that decision, but you, if living abroad is worth it or not. So what do you think?
Lizzy: Is living abroad worth it? Hit us up, let us know what you think. DM us on Instagram, @netnetpodcast, or email us at hi@netnetpodcast.com. And if you want to follow us individually, here's where you can find us.
Lissa: I'm @wealthforwomenofcolor on YouTube, TikTok, and Instagram.
Lizzy: And I am on Instagram and TikTok at @live_well_lizzy.
Lissa: All references, statistics, and resources mentioned can be found in our show notes. This podcast is for educational, informational, and entertainment purposes only, and should not be constituted as financial advice or life advice. Remember to always do your own research, consult a professional as needed, and feel empowered to make your own damn decisions.