Lizzy and Lissa break down the hidden costs – financial and otherwise – of permanent makeup. More and more people are opting for permanent and semi-permanent makeup for their eyebrows, lips, and more. From pricing and upkeep to the risks and rewards, this episode breaks down what you need to know before committing. They discuss whether the convenience outweighs the long-term costs and if it’s truly worth the investment.
Lizzy and Lissa break down the hidden costs – financial and otherwise – of permanent makeup. More and more people are opting for permanent and semi-permanent makeup for their eyebrows, lips, and more. From pricing and upkeep to the risks and rewards, this episode breaks down what you need to know before committing. They discuss whether the convenience outweighs the long-term costs and if it’s truly worth the investment.
Main Topics
00:00 Bacteria in Inks?
01:25 Running The Numbers Segment
02:30 Personal Experiences with Permanent Makeup
04:25 Different Permanent Makeup Procedures
14:51 Safety Concerns
18:58 Convenience vs. Financial Benefit
21:32 Authenticity
23:36 Insecurities and Beauty Services
28:49 Financial Costs and Considerations
34:26 20 Cents Segment
References for Statistics
https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/think-you-ink-tattoo-safety
https://www.health.com/bacteria-tattoo-permanent-makeup-ink-8699557
https://www.alliedmarketresearch.com/permanent-makeup-market-A325167
Lizzy: A new study found bacteria in 35% of commercial tattoo and permanent makeup inks tested. This is from research conducted by the Food and Drug Administration.
Lissa: 35%? One in three commercial tattoo and...
Lizzy: Yikes.
Lissa: ... permanent makeup has bacteria?
Lizzy: I don't like it.
Lissa: Is there a good bacteria? Because some bacteria...
Lizzy: Yeah, yeah, I know. That's blow broad.
Lissa: What kind of bacteria is this? Well, if you haven't checked out our episode on, Are Tattoos Worth It, we dig into...
Lizzy: All of that.
Lissa: Yeah, all of that too. But today, we are specifically discussing, Is Permanent Makeup Worth It?
Lizzy: Let's talk about it.
Lissa: Welcome to Net Net with Lizzy and Lissa, where we analyze hidden costs and empower you to make your own damn decisions in life. Each episode covers a different facet of life, and at the end of each episode, we each give our takes on whether we think something is net positive or net negative.
Lizzy: I'm Lizzy, a strategist and consultant with almost 20 years of experience in finance and investing.
Lissa: And I'm Lissa, a personal finance expert and a certified financial planner. We're best friends who talk about money...
Lizzy: And everything else.
Lissa: Is permanent makeup worth it?
Lizzy: First up, running the numbers on permanent makeup.
Lissa: According to allied market research, the average cost of a permanent makeup procedure is $200 to $800 with the most popular procedure reported as eyebrow tattooing.
Lizzy: And permanent makeup doesn't mean permanent forever. The average annual spending on touch-ups is $300.
Lissa: Yeah, that sounds about right.
Lizzy: Yeah.
Lissa: In 2023, there was a 40% increase in the demand for microblading and a 40% increase in a demand for lip blush.
Lizzy: Damn.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: It's big.
Lissa: An increase, yeah. What happened in 2023?
Lizzy: Right.
Lissa: Everybody wants this.
Lizzy: I think awareness.
Lissa: Maybe.
Lizzy: Maybe just awareness, yeah. There was a 50% increase in demand for scalp micropigmentation, which is typically associated with men and male pattern baldness. I did not know about that one.
Lissa: Yeah. Well, we all know there's more to life than numbers, so let's talk about it. Is permanent makeup worth it?
Lizzy: All right, Liss.
Lissa: Mm-hmm. What do I have?
Lizzy: What do you have? What you got?
Lissa: Okay. Well, I have stories for everything that I have. The only permanent makeup I think I have is my brows. These are ombre powder brows that I got for $150...
Lizzy: Hey. What's up?
Lissa: ... because I took the risk to let a budding brow tech, I don't know what they're called, eyebrow...
Lizzy: Artist.
Lissa: ... artist tattoo, brow tattoo person and friend do it me as like one of her first people. And it worked out.
Lizzy: Was it something that you wanted anyway regardless? Or did she come to you and suggest it?
Lissa: I think she came to me and suggested it because I didn't... So, this is the thing you said on awareness. I didn't know there was a world of permanent makeup. I kind of knew, but I never paid attention to it.
Lizzy: Yeah.
Lissa: So, I had no idea what it meant. And I just always thought like, I don't know. Too dangerous. Too costly. Not for me. I used to do that a lot in my 20s when it came to investing stock market...
Lizzy: Sure, yeah.
Lissa: ... or not for me, right? Permanent makeup, not for me. It's just something I always ignored...
Lizzy: Right.
Lissa: ... until I didn't. And then, when I discovered it, I'm like, "Oh, shoot. Lots of benefits here. I like it. I don't have to..." So, when I used to have to fill in my own brows, they would always be crooked. One would always be, "Oh, no, this one's darker. I got to take some off on this side." Or just keep putting on makeup until all of a sudden...
Lizzy: Yeah, then they get real dark.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: Yeah, yeah.
Lissa: If you see old pictures...
Lizzy: Take some finesse.
Lissa: ... when we used to go out to the club and stuff like...
Lizzy: To be fair, that was the style like 2016...
Lissa: True. True.
Lizzy: It was a little different. But yeah.
Lissa: Yeah. So, anyway, yeah. So, that's what I have on my brows. I think that's it.
Lizzy: Yeah, I don't think lashes count.
Lissa: Yeah, lashes are not permanent. They're not even semi-permanent. They last for...
Lizzy: No, they're just like another different beauty procedure.
Lissa: A different beauty service, yeah.
Lizzy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lissa: So, what about you?
Lizzy: So, I recently did my brows. They're nano brows. And I similarly had been aware of it for a while, and like microblading in particular, nano brows are the evolution of microblading.
Lissa: Yeah, explain what it is.
Lizzy: I don't totally know because I went in for microblading...
Lissa: Yeah, and they convinced you to do nano?
Lizzy: ... which is more... So, microblading is individual strokes.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: And in the examples I was looking at, a lot of people get the powder brows like you have, and I thought that's what I wanted. And then, when I looked at the examples, I didn't want that look for me. I think because in the examples I saw, it looked more like makeup and I didn't want mine to look like makeup. I just wanted them to look like I had fuller natural brows because I am a victim of having over plucked, the fuck out of them in early 2000s and they never grew back.
And I would... Every time I did my makeup, do my brows, even if I wore very little makeup. To be fair, I don't wear makeup that often, but I always do my brows because I think they really shape your face. And so, anyway, I was aware of microblading first. My sister-in-law got it and it was great, but for whatever reason I just like, "Oh, that sounds interesting. I'm intrigued." And I've never thought more about it.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: And I think I also just assumed it was expensive or my relationship to the cost and what I perceived as expensive was different then.
Lissa: Yeah, yeah.
Lizzy: And I just got them kind of on a whim.
Lissa: Yeah, you said it. And one day and I was like, "Oh, Liz? Cool."
Lizzy: I don't know what happened. I might have just seen an Instagram app...
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: ... or no, first I had asked you about it.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: I have no idea what sparked that.
Lissa: Oh, yeah, yeah.
Lizzy: I asked you if you had done it or I think I didn't know. Maybe you told me you did your brows...
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: ... because I said they looked great. And you told me and I was like, "Oh, I should look into that."
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: And I reached out to our mutual friend, she's not doing them anymore.
Lissa: Okay.
Lizzy: And then, a couple of months later it like...
Lissa: Just came up.
Lizzy: ... came up. And so, then I looked for a place and I just booked it. And so, mine were a year-end special. So, I think it was like $600, but normally $800.
Lissa: Do you know the touch up schedule like when you might have to touch it up again?
Lizzy: So, that cost included a six-week touch up, which I got a couple of weeks ago. And then, they say every two years. And so, for whatever reason, when I thought of it this time, I was like, "Oh." For that length of time having it...
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: ... it doesn't feel that expensive. And I had just sold my house...
Lissa: Okay, yeah, yeah.
Lizzy: So, I had disposable income. So, I was like, "Yeah, sure, why not?"
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: I am mad. I didn't do it sooner. I am so mad.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: I love it.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: And because I haven't ever done lashes, which I will equate from my perception in the sense that they make you look done or more done...
Lissa: Done like natural?
Lizzy: Done, yeah. You have said, you don't wear eye makeup...
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: ... now that you have lashes.
Lissa: Mm-hmm.
Lizzy: That's kind of how I feel more with brows of like, "Oh, I get it."
Lissa: Okay.
Lizzy: You automatically look polished or more polished or more done than you do without it.
Lissa: Right.
Lizzy: Even when you're makeup-free. And so, that's been the game changer for me.
Lissa: Yeah. The funny part for me is when we had our mutual friend do it. I actually don't think she was heavy-handed with the tattooing at all, but I've not had to touch it up. It's been five years.
Lizzy: Wow.
Lissa: And every time... In my head, I have to touch it up.
Lizzy: I mean, they look great.
Lissa: Right. That's what everyone says, and I'll go get my eyebrows waxed. They'll clean it up around it, and I'll be like, "Oh, yeah, I think I have to get them touched up soon," my ombre, because I just know in my head you're supposed to touch it up every few years.
Lizzy: Yeah.
Lissa: And they're like, "No, you don't." And I'm like, "Oh, so maybe it was the perfect amount of tattoo that it wasn't too much, but it doesn't need to be touched up, maybe.
Lizzy: Right. Yeah. I mean, they look fantastic still, yeah.
Lissa: Yeah, they looked fine and they look they're natural. So, I like it. So, okay. So, that's brows. You have nothing else?
Lizzy: I have nothing else. Although, I want to do the lip blush.
Lissa: Okay.
Lizzy: And I almost for the same reason of just to have that like, don't have to put anything on but look like you did.
Lissa: So, is that putting color in your lips?
Lizzy: Putting color in your lips.
Lissa: Okay.
Lizzy: Now, I was very enthusiastic about doing it when I went for my touch-up and I was like, "Oh, maybe I'll book it," that same day.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: My hesitation, I asked her, because you have a wedding coming up. I was like, "Will it peel? Whatever." She said, "It'd be fine."
Lissa: If Liz popped up to the wedding...
Lizzy: Or crazy lips or they're all peeling. Can you imagine? But, then I looked at the examples and I didn't love them. And the hard thing is here in LA in particular, so many women have lip fillers that I don't know if it was the blush that made it look like they had lip fillers or if they already did.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: And so, a lot of them had that like...
Lissa: Duck lips
Lizzy: Duck lip look...
Lissa: That you don't like.
Lizzy: ... that I don't like. I just want my natural lips with color. But they can do contouring.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: They can do liner, all kinds of stuff.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: So, that's the only reason I've hesitated is I want to make sure I like the way it turns out.
Lissa: Yeah, yeah. You know what? I just don't think of other things to do. You can also put actual blush on your face, right?
Lizzy: I think so, yeah.
Lissa: Yeah, right. And then, there's lip blush. Yeah, my lips kind of bother me. Granted, I like that they're full, but they get so dry. And then, there's kind of an outer outline that... It looks like actual natural lip liner...
Lizzy: Yeah, sure.
Lissa: ... and I just sometimes just have to wear lip gloss. But I don't particularly like the way it looks. I want a little more full color. But I think I'm too scared to do anything around my lips. I don't want to get a cold sore or a blister or anything. Even if it's just for the healing phase, I just don't.
Lizzy: Yeah, that feels different. Similarly, when I... I think you used to think of permanent makeup or tattooed makeup, I would think of people who tattooed eyeliner and those were actual tattoos...
Lissa: Yeah, and it's like...
Lizzy: ... like tattoos.
Lissa: Yeah, and it's like... So...
Lizzy: It's on your eyes.
Lissa: Yeah, it's on your eyes, and so difficult.
Lizzy: Yeah. I would never...
Lissa: It's so close to your eyes.
Lizzy: It's so close to your eyes. That freaks me out. And also, if you've ever had a black ink tattoo, it turns blue.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: It doesn't stay black.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: But yeah, some people do freckles.
Lissa: Oh, yeah.
Lizzy: They get freckles tattooed on...
Lissa: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lizzy: ... which is just so interesting...
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: ... like beauty norms as they evolve. I think freckles are so cute, but that that's become a thing people want.
Lissa: Mm-hmm. So, what are your thoughts overall on... So, obviously, there's benefits to, you don't have to do your brows. I said, "I don't have to draw mine in." And if you did the lip blush, you don't got to buy lipsticks and use lipstick very often...
Lizzy: Yeah.
Lissa: ... and it's just easier. So, from the perspective of whether or not this is okay and normal like, this industry...
Lizzy: Yeah.
Lissa: How do you feel about that? Is this, okay?
Lizzy: So, it's really interesting. My feelings have evolved so much. We talked a lot about this on our beauty services episode, which is one of our early episodes...
Lissa: First episodes, yeah.
Lizzy: First episodes where... And this I think relates to my attitude around it. I always had this value around being low maintenance. And that's ingrained for a lot of reasons. I go far beyond just physical appearance, but that was kind of a badge of honor. Even though I also would wear makeup or dress up, I think I had this inherent looking down on people who did a lot of services.
Lissa: Mm-hmm.
Lizzy: And not only has that changed, and my relationship to money changed. Incidentally, it actually feels more low maintenance.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: Like the thing I love about it is that I get the benefits of having a certain look without having to do anything.
Lissa: Yeah. Right. Exactly.
Lizzy: That's the reason I like it.
Lissa: That's how I feel, yeah.
Lizzy: And so, I didn't expect that. I think I thought, "Oh, if I did one of those things, it's going to make me a certain kind of person, which is fucking stupid...
Lissa: Stupid, yeah.
Lizzy: ... it's so dumb." But it actually just makes it nice...
Lissa: Yeah, yeah.
Lizzy: ... and I can have that feeling. I have an interesting relationship with physical appearance as it relates to being polished or people perceive you differently and is that okay? And not liking that or wanting to rebel against that.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: You're expected to look a certain way. And is it okay to like that?
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: So, I think that's where it's complicated. But I think the thing I like is I still look like me. I look like a maintained version and I don't have to do anything.
Lissa: Yeah, I like that too. I think about that because I'm very much like you. So, I recently did my hair and makeup trial for the wedding and I want all the glam, but I'm like, "But I still want to look like me," right?
Lizzy: Yeah.
Lissa: It's so ingrained that like, yeah, but it has to look almost natural and flawless...
Lizzy: Right.
Lissa: ... even though...
Lizzy: Like I just am naturally this way.
Lissa: Yeah, even though we're not sure like, that's not what I look like when I woke up this morning, right?
Lizzy: Right.
Lissa: Like it's glam. So, I have that with that relationship too. I wouldn't say that that's what's prevented me from doing stuff on my face so much as other reasons, like fear of...
Lizzy: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
Lissa: ... like the pain and healing. But I will say that's kind of my thinking for things like getting a boob job or like...
Lizzy: Yeah, definitely.
Lissa: Yeah, a BBL.
Lizzy: Same.
Lissa: I wouldn't do those for the reason that I still want to look and feel like me.
Lizzy: Yeah.
Lissa: So, I don't know if that's something I'm holding onto for the wrong reasons or right reasons, but that's kind of how I feel about it. But when it comes to permanent makeup, for me, number one is safety, right? What's that set the bacteria? That's scares me.
Lizzy: I know, that freaked me out. I don't like that. I don't like that one bit.
Lissa: Yeah, I think I need to learn more about bacteria in general in life.
Lizzy: Yeah.
Lissa: Because bacteria is crazy.
Lizzy: Yeah, and is that when you watch them pull the needle out of the sterilized thing?
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: Or is that just some haphazard little place?
Lissa: Yeah, yeah, I need more...
Lizzy: Because I see my clean needles.
Lissa: Right.
Lizzy: But are those still contaminated?
Lissa: But then again, bacteria is everywhere, right?
Lizzy: Yeah.
Lissa: So, it's like, is it bacteria that's going to actually do anything to you? Or is it just that those bacteria present because bacteria is almost everywhere.
Lizzy: Yeah, yeah, that's a good point.
Lissa: I don't know.
Lizzy: Right.
Lissa: But that's from the FDA, right? Yeah, I think that was the first step from the FDA. They said bacteria in 35%...
Lizzy: Yikes.
Lissa: ... of commercial tattoo and permanent makeup inks.
Lizzy: Yikes. In the ink.
Lissa: So, the ink.
Lizzy: In the ink.
Lissa: So, that's what scares me the most about anything beauty related and permanent makeup is the safety of it. Like you said, needle is too close to my eyes. I even felt that the brow one was kind of scary, but it's not on your eye.
Lizzy: Yeah.
Lissa: That's why, sometimes it used to scare me when I first started getting lashes. But if you get a really good lash tech, they know how to do it.
Lizzy: Yeah, there's some that they used to have infomercials for it, for this lash, like a serum to make them grow and it darkens them. But one of the side effects is, if you have light eyes, it can turn them brown. I'm like, "Never, never would I put that near my eyes." Like, hell no.
Lissa: And then, the ability to reverse it, right? I felt like for brows, you could kind of work around it...
Lizzy: Yeah.
Lissa: ... as long as they didn't like over line or something. But for blush or there's some things I feel like you can't really reverse.
Lizzy: I think I have that feeling around blush as well.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: And when I wear makeup, blush is important to me. But I would be like, because when I work out, my face gets all red, so is it going to be like double red.
Lissa: More red, yeah.
Lizzy: There's just things I don't totally want to mess with.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: Interestingly, this made me think though, I want to do lip blush kind of back to that. I think I get so ingrained in my day and what I have going on, that I just don't even think about.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: I have a 9 million lipsticks. It's probably the thing I buy most and I just forget.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: And not that I don't want to have that effect, I just don't even think about it.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: So, that benefit I think is.
Lissa: Do you throw away lipsticks? Or how long do you keep them?
Lizzy: I have no idea how long. I'm definitely you.
Lissa: Speaking of bacteria.
Lizzy: Speaking of bacteria, Lord. So, I get given so much makeup and so many miscellaneous beauty products for various reasons like friends who worked in the industry, clients. I have bins and I have gone through them, and I just don't need this stuff because the amount of makeup I use, I have one palette, one blush instead of bright... What I actually use is very minimal. So, I clean it out regularly. But I do have a whole bin since I just moved that I haven't used in over a year because it was in storage and I'm like, "I should just toss this..."
Lissa: Yeah. But yeah, on that, I think when I initially thought about getting my brows done, I made it a financial decision as well as a convenience and thing. But then, after that, I didn't... The financial part mattered less to me. One, I got these on sale...
Lizzy: Yeah.
Lissa: But I would think to myself that because I have those done, I don't have to buy brow... What do you call it? I don't even know what it's called anymore.
Lizzy: Pencil or powder.
Lissa: Pencil like a brow, yeah, a pencil...
Lizzy: Dough, whatever.
Lissa: But in reality, buying a pencil to fill in your brows can last you a really long time, right?
Lizzy: Yeah. For me, like... Because I would use a pencil.
Lissa: It lasts a long time.
Lizzy: And the one the color I liked the best happened to be a cheaper brand
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: So, I don't know, 50 bucks a year or something, more or less.
Lissa: Yeah, or less even for me. And so, it was less to me after getting it, it was less about the financial benefit. But more so just like, yeah, convenience. I can wake up, put some lip gloss on, and I look fairly decent to start my day...
Lizzy: Right.
Lissa: ... especially if there's a professional meetings and stuff like that.
Lizzy: Yeah, I think that's the thing that I struggled with was feeling like I need to have a different version of me because I'm very comfortable not wearing makeup. And I think that's a positive thing to like your face without makeup, that's probably a good thing overall.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: But I think I struggled to accept that I would want to change that in a way that it wasn't removable.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: And still, there's some level of like, "Well, what does it say about me that I like having that all the time?" But I kind of, I'm like, "Well, I don't care. It's okay that I like having it all the time."
Lissa: Yeah. So, this is, I think on the more philosophical side.
Lizzy: Mm-hmm.
Lissa: But sometimes, maybe when I was younger, I used to think, "Okay, well, if someone changes their entire image, let's say permanent makeup, boob job, whatever..."
Lizzy: Yup, any kind of plastic surgery, filler, whatever.
Lissa: And hair is something... I don't think we've talked about hair much in Net Net yet.
Lizzy: No.
Lissa: We should do an episode, right?
Lizzy: Yeah, for sure.
Lissa: But hair color, hair, whatever. So, let's imagine you do all that stuff and you look so different from what your natural physical appearance is like from a philosophical perspective. One, do you think there's anything wrong with that? Is that bad? Is that good? And then, also how funny, not funny, but what if it's like you look so different than what your natural biological look is? You meet someone, have a baby, and then the baby...
Lizzy: There's a real case of that.
Lissa: Really?
Lizzy: It was... I want to say in Japan where an older man married this woman, she's like a gold digger, I think. I'm probably getting all the facts wrong.
Lissa: Yeah, and had a lot of things done?
Lizzy: She had a lot of stuff done and they had kids and they came out with her old nose or something and he sued her.
Lissa: Oh, I think I remember this. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lizzy: But yeah, that's a real thought.
Lissa: Yeah, yeah.
Lizzy: Or if you watch friends, that's like a joke of Rachel Green's. Their baby is going to have her old nose. That's a complicated one for me...
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: ... because I think I would be lying if I said I didn't have some judgments around...
Lissa: Not being your true self.
Lizzy: Yeah, and I don't... Or I don't know if it's the authenticity thing or if it's this ingrained societal thing that women have to be beautiful and do it effortlessly.
Lissa: Oh, yeah.
Lizzy: It's the try hard part of it.
Lissa: And we definitely talked about this on that night before it.
Lizzy: Yeah.
Lissa: It's an ongoing theme, for sure
Lizzy: Yeah. And so, I think that's... There's some element of that, of like that... Eww, she did all... Eww, like look at everything she had to do to look that great.
Lissa: Mm-hmm.
Lizzy: And I think some of that comes from this place of like, "Well, if I did all of that, I could look that way too." And it's like, "Go for it."
Lissa: But why not? Why or why not? Who cares?
Lizzy: Yeah. Who cares? Yeah.
Lissa: Do it if you want to, yeah.
Lizzy: Yeah. But you see that a lot like, they're not beautiful, they're just rich.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: Or I think frankly, the Kardashians get a lot of that judgment because people suspect they've had various amounts of work done, or beauty services or maintenance, like Kylie Jenner in particular looks a lot different than she did when she was a kid.
Lissa: Yeah, I always wonder that as let's say you're a super, super rich celebrity and you've done some work because why? Because you can afford it, to do it safe and easy and make yourself look like however you want. And then, people will... Like the internet will flood with before-and-after pictures and all the things you did. And there'll be a lot of shame around changing your appearance. And yeah, I feel like you do where parts of me like have that ingrained notion of yeah, be your natural self because that's what society tells us. But society also sells us a look...
Lizzy: Right. And it also tells us that this version looks better.
Lissa: Right. So, how are you going to... So, it's basically you're damned if you do. You're damned if you do, damned if you don't. And so, I do oddly, not that the Kardashians will ever care or hear this, but I have empathy for that kind of thing.
Lizzy: Yeah, absolutely.
Lissa: It's like... But I wonder at that point, you're that rich and that famous, do you even care about those judgments anymore?
Lizzy: I think they're still human.
Lissa: And so, they will? It will... Yeah.
Lizzy: Maybe. But I think it's a complicated relationship with insecurities using them as an example. I don't know them. But a lot of people assume if you're changing a lot of those things about yourself...
Lissa: That you're insecure.
Lizzy: You're insecure about them. And maybe that's true. In which case, those comments certainly aren't helping. That's feeding the insecurity maybe. Or...
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: And at the end of the day, they're just people.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: I think something that made me think of is totally different example, but if you are a man, and I think particularly men of color. If you get a lineup, right?
Lissa: Mm-hmm.
Lizzy: That's in your hair, it very, very clean lines tend to be the style of haircut. That's like, you're fresh, right?
Lissa: Mm-hmm.
Lizzy: And there's a lot of other undertones of societal racism and stuff. But those people would say they probably look their best when they have a fresh cut. And so, what's wrong with trying to have a fresh cut all the time?
Lissa: Yeah. Nothing.
Lizzy: Right? Right, because that's when you look your best. But I think there's still some level for me personally, in my own version of that, of some negative thing about it.
Lissa: Yeah, yeah, I can't pinpoint it either. Because for the most part, I think the older I get and the more open I am to live and let live is cool.
Lizzy: Yeah.
Lissa: Whatever works for you, go ahead and do it. And then, for me, I think I'm at a point where I can own my insecurities. And I think as we all have insecurities, right? I think a lot of people, because it's an insecurity by nature, it's hard to admit that insecurity because you're insecure about it.
Lizzy: Of course, yeah.
Lissa: But I don't know, I think I'm at a point where I can own my insecurities. Yeah, I'm insecure about my uneven eyebrows, so I'm going to go get them...
Lizzy: Yeah.
Lissa: ... powder brows, right?
Lizzy: Right.
Lissa: Or yeah, I'm insecure about this little bit of belly fat, so I don't know, can I try cryotherapy...
Lizzy: Sure, yeah.
Lissa: ... or let me just, all right, let me work out more because I'm very insecure about it, but I can own it.
Lizzy: Right.
Lissa: And I hate the bits and parts of it that are the reasons I feel insecure both in my own brain or from society or from different messages I've been fed. But I feel in control in that area where I'm choosing to do these brows because of that reason. I'm choosing to do other beauty services because of that reason.
Lizzy: Yeah. So, not the same thing, but the way I relate to that most is that I buy my nails, and it is like a psychological disorder. It's called a body focus, repetitive behavior. It's part of ADHD. It's related to OCD. It is a compulsion. And it happens when I'm bored, when I'm not fully occupied.
A lot of people have misconceptions around it. I've gone through some periods of my life where I've been able to stop, but it is hard. It is really, really hard. And even when I'm doing it, I will be like, "I know I shouldn't do this because I don't like the way it looks." And it's like I cannot stop.
Lissa: Mm-hmm.
Lizzy: So, I've gone back and forth with wearing acrylic nails sometimes because I played sports, right? So, that made it challenging, they'd break or whatever.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: But a lot of times it was like, "Oh, they're expensive. I've tried to do cheaper things or whatever."
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: And at this point in my life, I've just said like, "You know what? It takes something that I'm insecure about and had thoughts and feelings about and it neutralizes it.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: And I look at it and they look nice, and I feel nice...
Lissa: And you like it, yeah.
Lizzy: And I like it. And that's enough.
Lissa: Mm-hmm.
Lizzy: And I think that's the other thing is when it comes to my eyebrows, I was never insecure about them even though they were uneven, even though they were thin, it didn't really bother me. But now, when I look, "It's nice."
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: Oh, I like that. It's like a little plus.
Lissa: Right.
Lizzy: And that's okay. And that's enough.
Lissa: Yeah. Well, I think again, this is kind of the beauty of our podcast even. Liz and I always share our opinions, our views, our judgments even. But we try to get to the bottom of why we think like that. But we can fully understand that another person is going to think and feel differently about it. So, you do you is basically... Like that could be our tagline. It's like...
Lizzy: You do you.
Lissa: Right.
Lizzy: I like that.
Lissa: And that's why, when we give our takes of whether we like something at the end of the episode, we're giving you the reasons we like or don't like it based on how we feel.
Lizzy: Yeah, for sure.
Lissa: And I just hope that that helps validate people's decisions to do things, right? And it's a complicated relationship with the money side, the financial aspect too, right?
Lizzy: Yeah.
Lissa: It's like, "Oh, I hate my eyebrows so much, but I would never spend $1,000 to get them filled in," right?
Lizzy: Right.
Lissa: So, let's talk about what do you value? Right?
Lizzy: Yeah.
Lissa: Do you value keeping your money and having more in savings and security than you value neutralizing that insecurity?
Lizzy: Yeah.
Lissa: There's no right answer. It just depends on what a person feels.
Lizzy: Or have an opposite example of like, sometimes I'll have this judgment that passes through of, I'll see younger girls, so I am just assuming they don't make a lot of money. Maybe they have a part-time job or I don't know.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: They're in high school, who knows what their parents make, that have nails and lashes and all these services. And I'm like, "Damn." Or, but the justification that you're allowed to spend that money on yourself, even if it means you're sacrificing in other areas, and you don't want to go into debt for beauty services...
Lissa: For sure.
Lizzy: But it's okay to spend that on yourself if you want to.
Lissa: Yeah, no, and I think that's important to point out because I struggle when I deal with clients who... I think there's a balance, right? I want people to have some amounts of joy in their budget even if things are tight right now. Because if you can't put something in your budget that's for you, that makes you happy, it's going to be harder to stick to it and stay the course. But there's boundaries because it's like, do you know why you're getting your nails done or doing permanent makeup or whatever? Do you know why?
Lizzy: Right.
Lissa: Is it because you're embarrassed of what you look like to people you don't even care about? You have to actually dig into that...
Lizzy: Yeah.
Lissa: Because that'll help guide your actual financial decisions about it.
Lizzy: Right.
Lissa: Versus just doing it willy-nilly, just because I think you have to attribute what does it actually bring to your life.
Lizzy: Right. Or I just thought of a totally different example like, I can imagine a new mother where all of your energy is going into a baby to look the way you want to look or be a little polished because you have this service, might feel nice.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: That you're not completely letting go of yourself when you're putting all your energy into caring for this other person.
Lissa: Yeah, lack of sleep. So, I don't know if you want to get some Botox in your face.
Lizzy: Right.
Lissa: That's the kind of stuff that, yeah, I agree.
Lizzy: Yeah, or time in the morning, or the thing that I've mentioned this many times that I struggle with is the reality that a certain type of appearance, I use the word polished because that's the word that comes to mind, people perceive that a certain way. Certainly, with work like, showing up on a Zoom call a certain way has an effect. I don't always like that that's a reality.
Lissa: But sometimes, you got to play the game.
Lizzy: But sometimes, you have to play the game. And so, that's something that I'm mindful of and think about. And a lot of times, I don't do it. But it's okay if you accept that fact and thus want to play into it or make it easier to play that game.
Lissa: Yeah, yeah. Okay. So, there's a financial cost to getting permanent makeup. There's a potential, I guess minor health risk, risk.
Lizzy: Yeah, especially if you don't... It's not a reputable place or someone's going to DIY it.
Lissa: Yeah. Right. I don't know. There's the percept, there's the emotional and mental potential cost of perception of others, right?
Lizzy: Yeah.
Lissa: You're not pretty without it. You got to do that. So, any other costs?
Lizzy: I didn't really feel any pain with it.
Lissa: Oh, yeah.
Lizzy: They numb you. But maybe, discomfort, I guess.
Lissa: Oh, yeah.
Lizzy: I don't know, I was fine.
Lissa: Right.
Lizzy: I didn't really notice, but I do know I have a high pain tolerance. And there's some... Like you can't do certain activities right after.
Lissa: Oh, right, right, right.
Lizzy: If you get eyebrows at least, or maybe all of them. It's a lot darker in the beginning.
Lissa: Yeah, for a week or two, yeah.
Lizzy: Yeah, actually, recorded. So, if you go back a few episodes, it was the day after...
Lissa: I didn't notice that day. I knew you got it the day before. We came to record, I forgot all about it when I got here. And then, after we left home, I remembered and I didn't... I was like...
Lizzy: See, it was surprising because I actually really liked it.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: It looked... They were much darker...
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: But they didn't look like clown makeup.
Lissa: Right.
Lizzy: They were passable, right?
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: To the point where I was almost like, "Oh, maybe I'll have them do them darker." But I liked the flexibility that...
Lissa: Of what you had. Anyways, it is weird because I knew you did it. I think maybe subconsciously I noticed, but they were just the perfect amount that it looked like, "Oh, yeah, you did your makeover really well."
Lizzy: Yeah, it looked like I just had makeup on, yeah, yeah. So, you can go back in.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: But that may not always be the case. And depending on how your skin takes it, you may peel or flake. I didn't have any issues. It healed really easily for me. You're not supposed to sweat or go swimming or I did my normal thing...
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: ... but you dab at them after the shower. I worked out normal.
Lissa: Yeah, but I think that's like the temporary...
Lizzy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lissa: ... healing and discomfort or whatever.
Lizzy: Yeah. And then, of course, you have to go back hypothetically...
Lissa: For touch-ups, alright, yeah. Okay. So, more financial costs are the touch-ups.
Lizzy: Yeah.
Lissa: But yeah, overall, I think we covered all the costs that there could possibly be with permanent makeup.
Lizzy: Yeah. Maybe depending on where you live, you may not have as many options or you may have to travel to get them done, smaller markets.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: Yeah. Cool. All right.
Lissa: Twenty cents.
Lizzy: Twenty cents.
Lissa: Twenty cents is the segment of the show where both Lizzy and myself, Lissa, each get 60 seconds to give our 2 cents on today's topic, whether it's a net positive or net negative for permanent makeup. Where does 20 cents come from?
Lizzy: She get the opinion of two dimes, two dimes.
Lissa: All right. Liz, you're up first, 60 seconds on the clock, is permanent makeup worth it for you?
Lizzy: For me, at this point in my life? Hell, yeah. I'm so happy I did it for my brows. I will for sure touch them up or whatever, continue with it. I may do the lip blush. I can't think of anything else that I would want. But yeah, it's been great. And the perceived cost was really focused on the financial part. And now, that I've done it and I'm like, "Oh, this is nice." It seems very worthwhile to get this benefit for several years.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: So, yeah, net positive, for sure.
Lissa: Net positive. And you think your lips might be next?
Lizzy: I might do it. I just want to make sure I like the look.
Lissa: Yeah.
Lizzy: I like the concept of it. I just don't want to look, look... I don't need that.
Lissa: All right. Net positive for you.
Lizzy: Net positive. What about you, Liss?
Lissa: For me... Okay, I'm going to... This is... All my answers are nuanced. I'm going to go net negative.
Lizzy: Oh.
Lissa: And here's why.
Lizzy: I bet I know why.
Lissa: Well, I got my brows done five years ago. I have not done any permanent makeup treatments since then. And I'm saying that negative in the sense that in the foreseeable future the next year, I don't foresee myself doing that. I have other competing financial priorities, right? Having a wedding. Even if I have disposable cash later, I think I'd prioritize other things. I've been thinking about some laser hair removal.
Lizzy: Yeah.
Lissa: Other beauty... In the beauty arena, I think I'd prioritize a few other things that I'd want to try...
Lizzy: Okay.
Lissa: ... before even thinking about any other type of makeup.
Lizzy: Does that include if you had to do a touch up?
Lissa: Oh.
Lizzy: Would you maintain your current permanent makeup?
Lissa: I would maintain.
Lizzy: Okay.
Lissa: But since I've gone five years, I actually don't think I have to touch up within the next year either. So, I think that's the only reason I'm a negative is that today in the foreseeable future, net negative. But I'll probably in the future do some more, something.
Lizzy: Yeah, out of feeling, that's the angle you're going with because it's just not a priority for you right now.
Lissa: Yeah. But priority for today, net negative, for sure.
Lizzy: All right, all right, all right.
Lissa: Yeah. Well, remember, this is what we think at this moment in time. No one can make that decision, but you Liz, net positive for permanent makeup. Me, net negative at the moment. What do you think? Is permanent makeup worth it?
Lizzy: Hit us up. Let us know what you think. DM us on Instagram at Net Net Podcast or email us at hi@netnetpodcast.com. And if you want to follow us individually, here's where you can find us.
Lissa: I'm @wealthforwomenofcolor on TikTok, YouTube and Instagram.
Lizzy: And I'm on Instagram and TikTok, @live_well_lizzy.
Lissa: All references, statistics and resources mentioned can be found in our show notes. This podcast is for educational, informational, and entertainment purposes only, and should not be constituted as financial advice or health advice. Remember to always do your own research, consult a professional as needed, and feel empowered to make your own damn decisions.